In which Lasair and Anna Maria debate Extremely Important Things
| Meta | |
|---|---|
| Title: | In which Lasair and Anna Maria debate Extremely Important Things |
| Creator: | lasultrix and anna_maria |
| Date(s): | March 13th, 2004 |
| Medium: | online |
| Fandom: | |
| Topic: | Fanfiction, Femslash, Slash |
| External Links: | In which Lasair and Anna Maria debate Extremely Important Things, Archived version |
| Click here for related articles on Fanlore. | |
In which Lasair and Anna Maria debate Extremely Important Things is meta post by lasultrix and anna_maria on the considerations of femslash being it's own genre.
The Post
Anyway, lasultrix and I have been having a sort-of debate over in a locked thread over the past two weeks and have reached a point where it's quite clear neither of us is going to convince the other. So, instead, I'll re-post it here in case others want to comment. Feel free to chime in, as long as you agree with me and not her, because it is my LJ after all, muahaha.
anna_maria (in my original post):[After complaining about receiving ""I don't usually like femslash, but this was good" as a review, which I get a lot]
Femslash isn't a genre. You can't say "I don't usually like femslash" the way you could say "I don't usually like [Buffy fic]" or "[darkfic]" or "[futurefic]" and have it make sense. It doesn't work that way. If you like m/m, and you like m/f, but you don't like f/f, you have issues with sexuality and/or gender that you need to deal with on your own.
lasultrix then replied:I really disagree.
Femslash is a genre in that there is a totally different dynamic attached to it than is attached to het or even m/m slash. And thus is makes sense that people can generally read m/m slash and het and not often read femslash.
Remember, also, that there's a big difference between 'I don't usually like it' and 'it freaks me out'. I don't usually like HPhet (there being many exceptions) but it certainly doesn't freak me out.
I've had people review VM the exact same way, and I do take it as a big compliment. I'm complimented because my story has, for this reader, transcended its category and just been good, irrespective.
anna_maria:Femslash is a genre in that there is a totally different dynamic attached to it than is attached to het or even m/m slash.
That's where we differ. There doesn't have to be a specific dynamic depending on the genders of the characters involved, in my opinion. We may come into a fic with certain expectations based on that, but that's our own baggage, that's not because of the way the fics themselves function. I've read f/f fics that sounded a lot more like I was used to m/m fics sounding, and vice versa, and same for het v. slash.
there's a big difference between 'I don't usually like it' and 'it freaks me out'
Point. My connection of the two probably comes from too many pre-LJ months spent lurking on FictionAlley Park. But I've seen the argument made in many other places as well, usually by younger slashers, where the declaration "I don't like femslash" is followed up by "I mean, two boys together is one thing, but two girls ... ew." I realize that's not the case for everyone. Still, knee-jerk reaction.
I'm complimented because my story has, for this reader, transcended its category
Why *should* it have to "transcend its category"? It is what it is. F/f is no different from any other kind of fic. Saying that it "transcends" is putting f/f in its own special place where you have to work to make your story overcome people's prejudices. Which we shouldn't have to do.
lasultrix:F/f is no different from any other kind of fic. Saying that it "transcends" is putting f/f in its own special place where you have to work to make your story overcome people's prejudices. Which we shouldn't have to do.
Come on. Are you actually saying that there's no difference between, say, femslash and het? Why are there such huge amounts of self-proclaimed 'slashers' around if there's no such thing as a queer dynamic? m/m and f/f IS a hell of a lot different to het, so you can't be disingenuous and say 'but it's all the same, we shouldn't be prejudiced'.
There doesn't have to be a specific dynamic depending on the genders of the characters involved, in my opinion.
What attracts people to slash (including femslash) as opposed to het, does tend to be the difference in dynamic from het. An overwhelming amount of fics have one or both characters dealing with their 'alternative' sexuality, or discovering it for the first time, or realising it for the first time. If it's not that, and they're long-term gay/bi people who are comfortable with that, then there's often going to be an external conflict due to their sexuality. Bottom line: it's not the same.
I may or may not have convinced you by this point that slash is different to het, but I'm going to hope that I have and go on to say that femslash is different to m/mslash. There are different and prevalent tropes attached to it. First and foremost, there's the fact that women are naturally very touchy-feely with each other, and femslash often depends on this natural touching spilling over into something sexual. This is how most 'discovering their sexuality' fics that's aren't rivalslash start, and it's something that could never happen with m/m.
Then there's the 'wounded women seek comfort in each other' trope, which I unashamedly use.
Femslash is also a lot more fluid than m/m slash. Because there's no penises involved, a lot of subtle stuff can happen without either person being forced to acknowledge it. That's rather hot, in my opinion, and again, something you just don't get in either m/m or het. A woman's body can respond violently without there being any external sign of it (at least, not one you'd notice when she's clothed).
Ooh, the 'practice kisses' thing you used in your Marissa/Summer? Don't tell me that could ever happen with het or m/m.
See what I mean? Different things.
anna_maria:Are you actually saying that there's no difference between, say, femslash and het?
I'm saying there shouldn't be. A fic is a fic is a fic. Sex is sex is sex. There's a fundamental difference between Draco/Ginny and Draco/Ron, and the genders of the characters involved has something to do with that, but the fact that one relationship is *straight* and one is *gay* is not necessarily a part of it. Depends on how the story is written.
See, now we're getting into questions that slashers have been debating inconclusively for years. I have mixed feelings about most of what you're talking about, so I'm not going to be able to really debate here, I'll just say that I think this stuff really, really varies by writer, by reader, by fandom. Not everyone would agree, for example, that there is in fact a queer dynamic, or that, if there is one, it has anything to do with the way we read and write slash.
As for the difference between m/m and f/f -- well, I think you're assuming a lot about gender roles here. Yeah, some women (maybe most) are more touchy-feely than men, sometimes that comes into play in relationships between women, sexually and not. And some men are also touchy-feely, and that same dynamic comes into play in their relationships -- you'll see a lot of the kinds of things you described up there as being characteristic in femslash in m/m Lotrips fics. (Maybe that's why I like them so much? Hmm.) I don't think you can draw any conclusions from that, though. Did you read Ruby's Boom Chicka? Might be my favorite HP f/f fic of all time, because it features Ginny and Pansy getting into a knock-down dragged-out fight while naked in a locker room screaming "You cunt!" at each other. Taking the perceived domain of m/m slash, especially H/D, and applying it to girls, and it worked so fucking beautifully. Anyway, my point -- f/f and m/m often differ from each other in terms of the way they're written and the way the relationships function. But they don't *have* to do that. There are no absolutes here.
...one or both characters dealing with their 'alternative' sexuality, or discovering it for the first time, or realising it for the first time. If it's not that, and they're long-term gay/bi people who are comfortable with that, then there's often going to be an external conflict due to their sexuality.
I think my perception of what slash actually is has changed with my reading preferences. I can't remember the last story I read that actually dealt with any of the issues you mentioned -- external pressure, the concept of gayness as alternative sexuality, etc. I kind of forgot that slash did that sometimes, even though I read a tons of fics like that in my early days of HP fandom. Which doesn't prove anything about this, of course, except maybe, again, that there is no absolute -- slash doesn't *by definition* have a different dynamic than het. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Most of the slash stories I read now don't treat sexual orientation as anything special, it just is. Characters are bi by default and no one expects anything different of them. Which is how I like my stories to be, I guess, but that's me.
Of course, then you said:
Ooh, the 'practice kisses' thing you used in your Marissa/Summer? Don't tell me that could ever happen with het or m/m.
Ahaha, and you're right of course. Using my own fic against me, nice strategy, there. ;) For everything I just said about how I like fics where sexuality isn't an issue, it's almost always an issue in the stuff I write myself. (Though come to think of it, not so much lately, the last few fics I've written didn't deal with that at all. Hmm.) I agree that that specific Marissa/Summer dynamic would be less likely to happen in m/m or het. But it could have been possible. It just would have required a more talented writer than me, because I can't figure out how to make it work. And I think we limit ourselves as writers when we assign certain characteristics and expectations based on genre or slash/het categorizations.
I'm tired and now I don't think any of that made any sense. But I will post it anyway.
lasultrix:There's a fundamental difference between Draco/Ginny and Draco/Ron, and the genders of the characters involved has something to do with that, but the fact that one relationship is *straight* and one is *gay* is not necessarily a part of it.
Call it queer or call it gender-based, but aren't you still admitting that the dynamic between two men is different than between a man and a woman?
Most of the slash stories I read now don't treat sexual orientation as anything special, it just is. Characters are bi by default and no one expects anything different of them. Which is how I like my stories to be, I guess, but that's me.
But that's completely unrealistic. Because (a) the world is stuffed full of homophobia and even more so, of heterosexism, and (b) the vast majority of people aren't bi. Or gay.
And some men are also touchy-feely, and that same dynamic comes into play in their relationships -- you'll see a lot of the kinds of things you described up there as being characteristic in femslash in m/m Lotrips fics. (Maybe that's why I like them so much? Hmm.)
Could be why you like them so much, then. Because everything I hear about the LOTR actors who are ficced the most is that they are much, much more touchy-feely with each other than men in general.
anna_maria:Call it queer or call it gender-based, but aren't you still admitting that the dynamic between two men is different than between a man and a woman?
Well I do think there's a difference between saying the dynamic is different because the genders are different and because one is gay and one is straight. If that sentence makes, um, sense. Like, say we have a Draco/Ginny friendship fic and a Draco/Ron friendship fic, no romance involved -- they'll be different, partly because one is about a friendship between a boy and a girl and the other is between two boys. But I don't think that difference is substantially distinct from the difference between a D/G and a D/R shippy fic. Or I don't think there *has* to be a difference, there certainly can be.
I'm sure there was a better way of expressing that idea but, I'm tired. *g*
But that's completely unrealistic.
*shrug* Fiction doesn't have to be realistic if it doesn't want to be. That's the author's choice. Not everyone is looking for realism, especially in fanfic. There was a discussion a while back on hp_girlslash that I found really interesting where someone complained that so many Hermione/Ginny fics took place in this ideal world where they didn't deal with prejudice and they never had trouble finding other gay girls to connect with, and she was upset because she couldn't relate to those experiences, and people wrote in response that, well, actually, we like reading about stuff like that, because we get to pretend that's the way the world really is. I mean, it's a matter of personal taste, really.
everything I hear about the LOTR actors who are ficced the most is that they are much, much more touchy-feely with each other than men in general.
Well... yeah... but it's not like they're freaks of nature or whatever. There are other men who are touchy-feely like that, even straight men, even some of my friends. I'm not saying it's the default, I'm just saying it happens.