User:MeeDee/Test12
2021 DL;DR (Don't Like Don't Read)
History of Queer/Kink Usage
[SamAburime] Still haven't seen anyone in the dozens of discussions or replies acknowledge the slogans original association with queer content. This whole situation could have been a way to bridge fandom experiences and have a constructive knowledge sharing outcome but everything went to shitLike it honestly could have been really cool to be like 'here are two valid and unique experiences, how they play into fandom history, this is the timeline and usage patterns' but
[1], Archived version
[SamAburime] I posted another reply I don't know if you saw I wanted to know since clearly both experiences can be true, what the details and the history behind it all. when did the slogan "DLDR" start being used nefariously? and -2) Did people with bad intentions appropriate a term used by queer ppl? Or if "DLDR" was nefarious first, was it reclaimed by marginalized ppl?
I also mentioned that it should be acknowledged in discussion that a large part of fandom still primarily associate it with that queer history, & queer terms are often misrepresented by some in bad faith (fujoshi/fudanshi, queer, etc.) so that's why some were so defensive
they have justification to be skeptical because lots of terfs and exclusionists are literally rewriting queer history to young people by misrepresenting it. So seeing something used largely in queer context be assigned as a term used with negative connotations is understandable.
It's a part of the history so it should be acknowledged in the discussions about DLDR. [2], Archived version
[DiscoursePixie in reply to SamAburime] You've hit the issue exactly. It's not the "DLDR" has never been used as a shield for racist fans, but it's disingenuous to imply that that is it's PURPOSE, especially considering its actual purpose was as a way for queer people to set boundaries and avoid homophobia. [3], Archived version
[SamAburime in reply to DiscoursePixie ]for me it's moreso some choosing to deliberately ignore that intrinsic connection to queer fan spaces and act like everyone who disagreed was being purposefully hostile, irrational and prejudiced and non-POC. Especially taking it from just the original fraction of quotes shared.
I think a constructive conversation out of this whole situation could be: 1) when did the slogan "DLDR" start being used nefariously? 2) Did people with bad intentions appropriate a term used by queer ppl? Or if "DLDR" was nefarious first, was it reclaimed by marginalized ppl?
Like that's what I'd like to know. Clearly both experiences can be true so what are the details and the history behind it all [4], Archived version
[DiscoursePixie in reply to SamAburime] These are great questions! I would be very interested in the evolution of these terms and the actual origins to see the answers.[5], Archived version
[nilamarthiel] I have only seen this *once* in my 20 years in online fandom that I recall, where a fic writer used a slur used against Rromani people was used in the title and had several anti-Rroma stereotypes in said fic, & doubled down hard when folks said it was insensitive. Otherwise, I have only seen this warning to keep homophobes, transphobes, ship-bashers, character-bashers, and people squicked by moderate-to-extreme kinks away to prevent “flames” and harassment. [6], Archived version
[feminamachina] That's extremely sus and sounds like it's coming from someone who has an agenda. DLDR has ALWAYS been used for slash and explicit content. I don't know why anyone would ever write fanfic about racism and I'd like to see someone point me to at least one example....involving DLDR being used as a cover for racist/discriminatory content. I'm sure there's outliers but there's no way it's that prevalent) [7], Archived version
[bardphobic] i have only seen "don't like dont read" right after "contains slash / smut" on the content summary of a fanfic [8], Archived version
[poIyleritae]: In nearly 20 years of reading and writing fanfic, I've never seen it used in the way that snippet alleges. If anything, it was the complete inverse, to shield the author from bigotry (homophobia in particular) directed TOWARDS them rather than FROM them. I probably worded that poorly but dl;dr and ykinmk was so frequently used specifically towards m/m and f/f fic, as well as kink and erotica in general, that I find it jarring that the photo OP, who seems to posit themselves as a scholar of sorts, is alleging otherwise. [9], Archived version
[DiscoursePixie] Your Kink Is Not My Kink (And Thats OK) originates in the kink community, and was adopted by the fic community in regards to fics featuring kinky content. Don't Like Don't Read was to ward of homophobes. [10], Archived version
[WriterALudwig] Dldr was used in German fandom (where i was active until about 2010) mostly for slash ships. There were legit people who would leave negative comments bc you had gay people in your fic... [11], Archived version
[hitthebookspost] Well that's some revisionist s**t I too have only ever used or seen those terms to give a warning for ships people might not like, or particular kinks or sex acts, or tropes.[12], Archived version
[BirdFlash_Virus] i think it's basically a retelling of those terms. "Don't like, don't read" has ALWAYS been about the content, particularly slash fanfic in the early 2000s. "don't like, don't read" boiled down to "don't come crying to me if you read something you don't like, I warned you" [13], Archived version
Racism
I’ll go against the crowd and say I’ve definitely seen it. It was definitely a thing prior to Racefail (there were some racist SPN/J2 fic), and I wouldn’t be surprised that it still pops upI also think it showed up during a blow up about a WWII omegaverse fic on AO3 last year
and follow on tweet]
I‘m thinking more about the way it pops Western fandom— the J2 fic in 2008 where Jensen Ackles was a samurai, and “you don’t have to read it” as a defense for poor research and exotising writingOr, more recently, I’m pretty sure it got used in the blow up over JD’s fic about an omegaverse nazi-defector sometime last year.
And I think in some ways it’s what happens when someone thinks “if you’re informed about what’s in this, you don’t have room to complain” and
A broader fandom critique.
If someone critiques fandom’s two-white-guys boner, and their interlocutor reads that (in good or bad faith) as a critique of a specific ship or segment, the legitimate “dl;dr” gets read as a defense of the racist tendencies
[14], Archived version and [15], Archived version
It's rare, but it wouldn't surprise me of a few used it as a shield. Mostly it was intended to tell yaoi haters to fuck off. [16], Archived version
one of the great tragedies of any Good Thing is that pretty much inevitably there's a way to use it to prop up racism or abuse - but good luck seeing most people acknowledge that if they have a hypothesis they're desperate to prove [17], Archived version
there were some extraordinary wanksThat said, I have also seen it in ship wars and broader discussions about fandom trends more recently, in part because of the recent conflation of shipping and politics. Because if I think [x] ship is racist, and
someone responds ”dl;dr”, they’re perforce using it to “defend” racist work there were some extraordinary wanks [18], Archived version
[LaT_CQL] Everyone doesn’t move in the same fannish spaces, in the same way or at the same time, though. As someone who is old enough to remember how it used— fanfiction, including critique of fanfiction that has racism, misogyny, or other forms of bigotry baked into it AND as someone who has watched the way folks derail good faith critiques of fandom’s capacity for bigotry, particularly racism, by lumping those critics in with —
— antis and ‘fan cops’, I have to point out that experiences aren’t universal, and simply because you (general) have not experienced Thing A does not mean Thing A has not occurred. DLDR may have started out as a shield against queer-/homophobia or anti-kink —
— but it absolutely does get used now to shut down legitimate and good faith critiques of fandom’s capacity to be bigoted. And depending on the age of a given fan or the timing of when someone got into fandom, it may very well be the only way some ppl have ever seen it used. [19], Archived version and
[amorxremanet]I haven’t seen DLDR used as a WARNING in this way, no HOWEVER, I *have* seen it used as a response to people who are trying to point out bigoted or triggering things in fics (which is especially galling in cases of authors presenting full non-con as dub-con or consensual s3x…
& saying “don’t like, don’t read” when called out on it in the comments, which is like??? How can someone choose to not read a thing they don’t like if you are presenting this under false pretenses??? Your entire premise is based on people being able to make an informed choice??)
Likewise, back in Ye Olde SPN RPS fandom, during an infamous wank, some people clapped back at critics of the J2 Haiti fic to the tune of “stop being so sensitive! don’t like, don’t read” as if the author of said fic actually warned for how appallingly racist it was (they didn’t)
I’ve seen it about fanart as well. There was an infamous piece in the Teen Wolf fandom where Scott, the brown, biracial Latinx lead & titular Teen Wolf, was drawn being walked on a leash by his white bff, who was wearing SCOTT’S hoodie from the first episode of s1. Then, Derek…
(white major supporting character, fellow werewolf, half of a juggernaut ship with the white bff even though he & Stiles hated each other & a lot of their fics made Stiles more like Scott than like his canon portrayal) —yeah, Derek is stalking them through the woods (which, in
fairness, he does to Scott a LOT in canon), but he’s bipedal & fairly humanoid, while Scott is drawn crouched over & way more animalistic & the refrain most often used against BIPOC fans who went “dude, not cool”? was “just ignore it, just don’t look if you don’t like it”
—as if anyone COULD filter it off their tumblr dashboards. At the time, Tumblr Savior would only catch a post if it had tags, & pretty much no one reblogging it added a CW: racism or CW: dehumanization bc they didn’t see a problem with Scott’s portrayal vs. the white boys’[20], Archived version
Both/Shifting
[SamAburime] I'm seeing a lot of ppl QRTing abt this claiming everyone who agrees with you is white, as well as ignoring the very prominent mention of 'We've only seen this used in specifically queer spaces to avoid being bombarded by targeted homophobia'. So many ppl angry are ignoring that--we've likely all experienced the 'if you don't like this popular media don't engage with it' racist/sexist issues, but the term 'don't like don't read' etc. wasn't an official tag-line used by them. It was more so something repeatedly stated in different similar phrases.
there's also been a trend in fan spaces for gatekeepers to rewrite meanings that have had established meanings in those spaces, and so the original skepticism from queer readings was justified. Misinformation & propaganda are common in online LGB spaces to target queer people so
[21], Archived version and [22], Archived version and [23], Archived version
Used For Tagging/Warnings
[manubibi_efp] But anyway no, I have never seen those warnings being used to defend oneself against accusations of bigotry, especially because they don’t apply? Like it’s more of a warning on NSFW content, it wouldn’t make sense to use them in those circumstances. Also bc a racist person wouldn’t typically believe they’re doing anything wrong, so there would be no reason to use a warning according to them. [24], Archived version
[sesshychans] "Don't like, don't read" is racist??? Isn't it a way to avoid getting upset over something that, if tagged properly, WILL MAKE YOU UPSET? My sister avoids every fic that has "major character death" because she doesn't like when it happens! So when more warnings, the best! [25], Archived version
Used In The Context of Antis/Part of Ship Wars
[xiaobabie1] this is utter bullshit. the only people who see those phrases that way are those who want to tell people how to ship and what to ship. fancops who wouldn't be content until everything is as white and ~pure~ as they want it to be. this makes me so mad- pure puritanical horseshit [26], Archived version
[kiokushitaka] i only remember dldr from the late 90s/early 2000s used on slash fic bc homophobes were the first antis. i first experienced the your kink is not my kink phrase when delving into my local kink community.[27], Archived version
[moonlighlark] I this used very often in fandom now. But actually I see it used the other way around, nowdays people use it to defend their kink because the new crusade of puritanism in fandom is getting out of hand. And honestly artist and writers are left without options to defend their work. [28], Archived version
Missed Nuances
[challah_chic] I do think we need to recognize that pointing to specific works and trends is a legitimate method of criticism— but creators who are used to harassment of gay works automatically defend with defending its right to exist rather than the social constructions they illustrate so any critique gets assumed bad faith on both sides because we’re talking about different things[29], Archived version
[KuroAoki reply to challah_chic]I absolutely agree that ppl need to be aware of issues & be open to legit concrit w/o falling back onto dl;dr. But I also feel like their approach to 'ships are racist' by default rather than thru how they're portrayed only perpetuates the hesitancy towards shipping poc >
characters to begin w/. If we're trying to break down that barrier & get more content for these characters, shouldn't we focus on the tropes, rather than the pairing? W/ regard to ships that don't include poc characters, sure it may be worth examining why that vs the other in >
the broad sense, but making a sweeping assessment of an implicitly racist motivation for individual fans is absurd. It's entirely possible not to treat ppl who ship a specific pair as a monolith. Basically, I agree w/ the intention, but the methods are poorly designed & their >
overall inability to have their stance questioned is extremely off-putting. The kneejerk reactionary nonsense is very immature. /end [30], Archived version
[Loéva-Mat]I think I have... imo DLDR has become a kind of 'slogan' for some people - even if its own history is bend to slash fanfic/bigoteri - it's now a common response to criticism. DLDR highlights the fact that fanfic are fanprojects, made on free time, just for fun (mostly)
Following Ao3 comment of the day account on Tumblr I realised that - even if researchers were astonished by how fanfic websites work (with all the mutual support between writers and readers) - on Ao3 the writer has any right to refuse negative comments of any type
It's not just about the possibility to erase bad comments, it's also a mood around 'how to react to criticism'. There, I saw DLDR being used frequently, not just about "the people who criticize are obviously bigot/homophobe" but "they're unkind and are trying to kill your mood"
It's probably a logical response to the purges : criticism is see with suspicion. A reader who wants to criticize may have bad intentions. And even if they don't have any, their criticism may leads to something harmful for the writer (or everyone in the fandom).
So I saw it sometimes : racism being pointed out in a fic (or something TW which wasn't tagged correctly), and the writer (or other readers) responding by DLDR (it happened in MDZS fandom about a fanfic AU wrongly tagged CC with Jewish characters (taoists in the canon))
The fact that DLDR is mainly a legitimate response to bigots is clear in my opinion. But it's also a fact that DLDR can be used as a right to never listen to any criticism (bc it's for fun). It's not necessarily the fic writers who are the ones to use it that way, btw.
I'm particularly sensible to their point about "being able to discuss issues in fandom" as I'm in some huge fandom where issues are a kind of international sport competition but also a minefield.
We probably need to find ways, space and time for discours about fandom. Comments area in fanfic websites and SN aren't always the good places.
Also, racism in fandom is still mostly taboo. fanfic writers aren't always able to realize that their fic includes racism and when it's point out, the systemic nature about this problem isn't always clear to them. The comment isn't made to say "you're a racist" but "it's racism"
So it can be read as a personnal attack, or a "certain personnal view". The DLDR seems to be a suitable answer then. Sometimes racism or sexism are mixed with kinks, so it's easy to see the criticism as kink shaming.[31], Archived version