Abuse filter log

'{{EventProfile |event= |name= |date= 1995- |type= |fandom= [[Star Trek: TOS]], [[K/S]] |url= }} '''The K/S Netfan-Printzine Fan Wars''' were a series of discussions and controversies that occurred among [[K/S]] fans on print zines and [[K/S]] (and other pairings) fans on the early internet, mainly [[Usenet]] lists [[alt.startrek.creative]] and later, [[alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated]]. The terms they used for themselves and each other were 'printzine fans," "print fans," and "zine fans," "netfans," "netizans," "webfans," "webizen," and others. ==Shifting Power== It is important to note some power imbalances, both static and shifting, in this conflict. [[K/S]] print zine fandom was a subset of the wider [[Star Trek: TOS]] zine fandom, and one that had much more to protect and hide. At the same time, K/S print zine fandom was in the power position in terms of scope, product, and power for K/S fans. When K/S first started appearing on the internet in the early to mid-1990s, primarily at [[alt.startrek.creative]] and then [[alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated]], it was then print zine fans who started to be at a disadvantage in terms of attracting new fans, who in turn created and consumed new [[K/S]] fanfiction. Print zine fans felt they were fighting for their very existence and desired validation and attention from online fans. Online fans, however, did not have the same fears or need for recognition from print zine fans. The resulting culture clash was one of [[BNFs]], turf wars, blacklisting, blanket statements by fans on both sides. ==Some Context== Printzine fans came from a long line of authors, readers, and artists who had, since [[Star Trek: TOS]] was on the air, forged the path in fan fiction. The K/S fans sprung from this fandom, and their culture was one of deflecting derision from fellow fans, fear of retaliation from [[Paramount]] and other [[TPTB]], and creating their fanworks in protected ways and spaces with each other. This insular and wary fandom very much tended to lean towards keeping out of visible spaces. A new breed of [[K/S]] fandom arrived in the form of those on [[Usenet]]. These fans included some fans who were printfans as well, but many of those on [[alt.startrek.creative]] and [[alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated]] were brand new fans, brought into their community in ways that were oblivious to printzine fandom, neutral towards its existence, or openly dismissive and hostile to these previous fans. Printzine fans returned many of these opinions. Netfans were brash and sassy. They hadn't paid their dues, and appeared to have no fannish mentors. Posting fiction was very casual, and done without the help of zineds, which may printfans felt produced lazy, unedited fiction that one could not take seriously. To printzine fans, the netfans were [[feral]] and dismissive of the traditions and culture that came before them. Their fiction was sloppy, and they only wrote for the instant feedback, feedback that was equally short and sloppy. Printzine fans pointed out that computer access wasn't free, and that to have both the money for hardware, modems, and other requirements meant that online fandom was elitist. They also were afraid that all these public venues (Usenet and newly-hatched websites) increased the visibility of slash and [[K/S]] and bring down the wrath of lawyers and TPTB. To netfans, printzine fans were dull, too focused on their own importance and hierarchies, unwilling to take risks, afraid of change, and too incestuous in their pecking orders. They also criticized the very production of printzines, that of money changing hands so that print zines could be dispersed. Netfans felt that print zines were elitist, exclusionary, and because money changed hands, courted danger from TPTB. BNFs in both worlds felt the pressure to protect their statuses and best interests, as well as be a cheerleader to keep their own fandoms surviving, and thriving, into the future. The battles between the two factions were fierce, and were both about protecting one's way of life, and winning the hearts and minds of [[K/S]] going forward. ==Some Players and Touchpoints== ===Killashandra's Stories=== [[Killashandra]]'s long stories [[Turning Point (Star Trek: TOS story by Killashandra) |Turning Point]] (1995) and [[Full Circle (Star Trek: TOS story by Killashandra)|Full Circle]] (1997) were first posted to [[Usenet]] at [[alt.startrek.creative]]. These stories were very well-received and for some fans, were a bit of a bridge between the two worlds. Killashandra was also a moderating voice in discussions and fan conflicts, a spokesperson that tended to have listeners on both sides. At least one fan felt that Killashandra's tolerances and alliances with printzine fans were flawed: {{Quotation| I wasn't suggesting that Killashandra is trying to perpetuate the myth of the Great Tradition of printzines (I know that she came into fandom through the net); at worst, I think she may have bought into it through her friendships with print fans. Or maybe all she meant to do was give the printfan perspective. <ref> 1999 comment by [[Judith Gran]] at [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] </ref>}} ===The COCO CHANNEL Interviews=== The [[COCO CHANNEL Interviews]] including [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] (1999) These interviews were conducted by [[Kharmen Ghia]], a fan who did not like print zines and pulled no punches about this. Kharmen included this question in many of their interviews: {{Quotation| Karmen Ghia: Me, I'm just a webizen so I know nothing of the printzine community, except for a brush or two with certain members. What is with those people? Are they really as uptight, narrow minded, hyper critical/sensitive and condescending as they seem or am I really just too fucked up to see their good points? }} ===Judith Gran=== [[Judith Gran]], a [[BNF]] who had fanworks in both print and on the net, was a major player in the wars. While Gran wrote many long reviews of fiction in print zines, she was also was very outspoken in her criticism of print fandom in later years. Gran often jumped into conversations with lengthy, academic treatises about fan behavior, motivation, and alliances. Gran considered [[Emily Adams]], [[Kathy Resch]], and Dot Loang to be "enlightened" print zine editors. ===Some Usenet BNFs=== [[Kharmen Ghia]], [[Raku]], and [[Jungle Kitty]] were three [[BNF]] netfans who were blunt in their dislike of printzine fandom. They had outsized fannish voices, and this helped propel netfans' animosity towards print zines. ===Some Print Zine BNFs=== [[Shelley Butler]], [[Jenna Sinclair]], and [[Robin Hood (fan)|Robin Hood]], three BNFs who were outspoken and active in protecting printzine fandom. ===The Foresmutter's Project=== A project by [[Mary Ellen Curtin]] was [[The Foresmutters Project]] (May 1999-). It was an attempt to preserve and educate [[K/S]] fans about some old classics in the print zine world. When the "Foresmutter's Project" was first proposed, there was a flurry of comments from fans. Some of those comments, included below, were made during a six-day time period in May 1999 to [[alt.startrek.creative]] <ref>[https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.startrek.creative/foresmutters/alt.startrek.creative/nMGni1V4lO4/svzgAMygVhwJ The Foresmutters Project], comments at alt.startrek.creative] and [https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/alt.startrek.creative/foresmutters%7Csort:date/alt.startrek.creative/mHr-JkHJ7Ps/tpp-Q3a2ehUJ Foresmutters: remaining concerns]</ref> shortly after the first story [[Freedom is Standing in the Light]] was posted to the [[newsgroup]]. See [[The Foresmutter's Project#May 1999: alt.startrek.creative (the burden of history, access, control, status, and cocktail wienies...)|alt.startrek.creative (the burden of history, access, control, status, and cocktail wienies...)]]. The first comment was by [[Jungle Kitty]], and it goes downhill from there: {{Quotation| <deep breath> I am very uncomfortable with this whole thing. I freely admit that part of my discomfort is due to the less-than-pleasant experiences I've had among the citizens of the [[zine]] world. But one of the things I grew extremely sick of was having the Glorious History of [[K/S]] shoved in my face every time I turned around, which started up the minute I entered that forum. I know [[Judith Gran|Judith]] and [[Mary Ellen Curtin|Mary Ellen]] mean well with this, but I have to question the value of posting these stories to the [[Newsgroup|NG]]. There is plenty of Trek [[fanfic]] on the web, and not all of it has appeared on [[ASC/EM]]. I certainly understand the value of sharing these stories, but why not do it on a webpage? You could post update notices to the group, as is frequently done by the owners of similar pages. I think this may be contradictory to the community spirit that we enjoy here. From private convo with Doc & Judith, I know that they had to *beg* the author of "[[Freedom is Standing in the Light|Freedom Is Standing In the Light]]" to allow them to post it to the NG. If this person is so reluctant to participate in the NG and suspicious of what may happen here, why use up the bandwidth (esp. on [[ASCEM]], which is limited to 50 posts a day) when the writer has no interest at all in response from the readers or in participating in the group at all? Lurking authors? A very strange concept. [...] I welcome other opinions on this, but to me, it feels like our party has just been shut down. Someone has shouted, "Shut up, sit down, and listen to this! This is IMPORTANT!" And we are politely but sternly told not to try to contact the writer, so no discussion with hir (praise or crit) is possible. What's the point? If these people want to post the stories and join in the fun, great! Welcome aboard! But this feels like we've just been given a reading assignment. I get enough of that sort of thing in real life.}} == Forays: First Contact== From a print fan in 1997, alt.startrek.creative was an eye-opener: {{Quotation| One day I happened to look at a creative writing group, alt.startrek.creative, when a rather extraordinary writer had happened to post a wonderful story. Finding this gem finally got me hooked on the group enough to hang out long enough to discover how things worked. I had never seen fan fiction before. Realizing that other people thought up Star Trek stories was a revelation to me. <ref> from [[The K/S Press]] #11 </ref>}} [[Sandy Herrold]] wrote in February 1997 about her experience at the 1996 [[Escapade]] convention: {{Quotation2| I only heard a couple of people mention the unconnected/connect split at all. The New battle appeared to be between "Printfans With Modems"... vs. "Netfans": Stuff like, "They don't care about our traditions," "All net writing is barely readable crap", "If most of a show's fandom is online (like [[SAAB]] and [[Star Trek: Voyager|Voyager]], to name a couple), it proves that the show is crap and They're just writing porn." (And the classic, "print fans don't have beta readers; they have FRIENDS.") <ref> from [[Internet Fans Controversy Du Jour (Sandy Herrold)]] </ref>}} From a fan in February 1997: {{Quotation| It seems that just in the last couple of months the number of Classic Trek (and K/S) fans on the net seems to have increased dramatically. [...] The alt.startrek.creative and alt.startrek.creative.erotica newsgroups provide a wonderful forum for getting instant reader feedback, and lots of it. [...] On the subject of mailing lists, chat rooms, and other group activities on the net... I think as our numbers increase we need to really be aware of the fact that the internet is a community just like any other, with unspoken rules and customs that must be learned and respected if we want the community to thrive. It's easy to feel anonymous and casual with net communications, because heck, you can have a dozen screen names, and it's just so darned easy to jot off a note and hit "send." It's really important that we respect each other and the customs of our little community -- and that means treading softly if you're not sure of a particular group's customs. <ref> from [[The K/S Press]] #6 </ref>}} In March 1997, a print zine fan wrote: {{Quotation2| A lot of people have no access to the Internet. A lot who do may not, for several reasons, access alt.startrek.creative. I tried it twice; once I got seven eighths of a story - the remaining file (a middle one) never did surface - and the other time, what I got was complete, but so bad I've never touched .creative since; besides which, I like paper when I'm reading <ref> from [[The K/S Press]] #7 </ref>}} ==Forays: Education Attempts== ===Amazing Grace: Special Edition=== In 1998, [[Dot Loang]] published a special edition of her print zine, [[Amazing Grace]]. From that zine's editorial: {{Quotation| Welcome to what may be the first all 'Net K/S zine! Each of the stories in this zine was originally published on the Internet. The authors have given me permission to publish them for the first time in zine format. I call this a "sampler" because this is only a sampling of the many excellent K/S stories that have been posted online. }} ===An Essay: Topic was "Turning Point" and "Full Circle"=== In January 1999, [[Mary Ellen Curtin]] wrote an essay about [[Killashandra's]] fiction, and she received a lot of push back from it from the usual anti-print fans. This essay and the following comments are a strong example of the tensions between [[netfans]] and [[printfans]] defending their turf, teeth and nail, as well as the highly personal reality all fans bring to the table of concrit and review. One of the commenters ([[Karmen Ghia]]), had a history of being quite derisive of "older" [[K/S]] fiction <ref> See [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Judith Gran]] (September 1999) </ref>, and states in their comments that they are "burnt out" on K/S fiction in general. Karmen Ghia also disliked the print zine community, and while "Turning Point" and "Full Circle" were posted online, they also appeared in the print zine, [[T'hy'la (Star Trek: TOS anthology)|T'hy'la]]; this was something they were also pushing back against. In essence, the comments below are about personalities, expectations, fannish power, [[BNFs]], and turf wars. See [[On "Turning Point" and "Full Circle"]]. From [[Karmen Ghia]]: {{Quotation| Part of my problem with your essay is that I have K/S burn out. That relationship has been so picked over by so many that it's lost most of its charm for me. There really isn't much you can do with Kirk and Spock anymore after they've fucked each other in every conceivable position. Not even the addition of McCoy, Chekov, Uhura or the entire engineering department rugby team can save them from being boring. All the suspense for me is in wondering if the writer put some new spin on it. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. I say we need more of a break from canon, new characters interacting with old in old and new places. Why not? It's not as if the canon police will cite us for it.}} ===Shelley Butler's Outreach=== In May 1998, [[Kimbuk3]] wrote the editors of [[The K/S Press]] and said: {{Quotation| As someone with my feet firmly planted in both the zine world and the online world, I would like to make a comment on the issue of net and zine K/S. I really believe that in a short while, there will not be "a zine world" and "an online world". There will only be the K/S community, and it will have its electronic incarnation and its paper incarnation. Fans will read stories in both formats, and writers will write stories for both formats. And we will all be LOC'ing in both places. There has been a longstanding concern that online K/S will supplant paper based K/S. But no one seems concerned that the larger and older zine culture will drag K/S people away from online. The underlying assumption seems to be that the net is in some way "better," and therefore a threat. Maybe because it's faster, or because it's (somewhat) free. However, both "worlds" have positive and negative aspects. For instance, in my opinion, the online K/S world is too scattered and too shallow. And the zine based K/S world is too slow. But, the zine based K/S world has gorgeous art, lengthy LOCs and a fascinating 20 year history. The online world has spontaneity, fresh ideas and more diversity. They are both very different, and one will never completely replace the other. However, in order for the One K/S community to develop, the two worlds must become more integrated. I think it's important to educate "online" people about the zine world. And it's equally important to educate "zine" people about net K/S. <ref> from [[The K/S Press]] #21 </ref>}} Butler addressed fans in that same issue of the print letterzine: {{Quotation2| I agree with Kim Adams that an ideal future will see the online and zine K/S worlds truly united, with fluidity between them. There are lots of good things to be said for both forums of expression. I’ve read some dynamite stories online, and I’ve read some dynamite stories in print. I don’t know that there is much good to be obtained by listing the merits of each community, or their faults either. I think human beings have the tendency to go with what is familiar, with what makes them comfortable. The unknown can be scary! What I know best is the world of print zines, and I definitely want them to continue, to prosper. I will do everything in my power to see that there are K/S zines published, including publishing my own zine. (I’m working on a project for next year — it’s a secret!) Print zines are what created K/S, what carried it into the future that is now. I see a whole lot of value in them. The way I look at K/S has been shaped by them. There is no doubt that online fans, who found their way to K/S and to this letterzine via the newsgroups, have changed and are changing the shape of K/S fandom. That can be good! Uncomfortable sometimes, maybe, but good! It could also be bad, if what is of value is lost in the transition. What I’d like to see is for both communities to truly know one another. I’m a lurker online, and I feel as if I have a pretty good idea of what’s going on there. I’d like to think that folks whose gateway to the fandom was the Internet, and who are primarily “post it” sort of people, would also get to know the rich history and tradition that is K/S.}} Emboldened and encouraged, Shelley Butler posted a message to [[alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated]], and listed [[Kimbuk3]] as a resource who could help answer questions and bridge both [[K/S]] communities. On June 2, 1998, [[Shelley Butler]] attempted some outreach to online fans: {{Quotation| Hello to all you folks on ascem. I'm Shelley Butler, and I've been lurking here for a while. I do K/S art for zines, and I adore K/S and everything about it! I understand there have been some TSU lectures here recently about the history of K/S zine fandom, and I thought I'd add a short lecture on art in K/S zines. I'd like to explain about art in K/S, and show some of you out there who may not be familiar with zines or the artwork associated with them, an example of what the art looks like. One of the big selling points about zines throughout the past like 20-some years has been the artwork in them. In the "olden" days, before VCRs and readily available episode tapes, the artists had only their imagination, memory and a stray photo or two, to use as source material to draw Kirk and Spock in all their compromising positions. Sometimes it was very, very sucessful---as in the art of Gayle Feyrer, Southern Cross, Pat Stall or Marilyn Cole, DEW and a number of others. The drawings of these women are guaranteed to take your breath away. Othertimes, it was not so successful. You couldn't tell your Kirk from your any other human male, and you could tell your Spock, but only because of the ears (and maybe the double ridges!). But although these artists may have been short on the source material or even the talent, they were long, long, long on love for K/S, and it comes through loud and clear. The old zines were often filled with art of all kinds, and even photos (pre-Paramount suing-the- pants-off-of-you-days), and adorned with beautiful graphics, borders and typefaces. Some of those zine are really gorgeous. Often we would buy a zine just because of its cover. Today, we have way fewer zines and way fewer artists. But new zines usually have a fair amount of artwork inside them, and usually a dynamite cover. Robin Hood of Merry Men Press zines does a front (g-rated) cover and a matching back (explicit) cover. (You can also still collect the old zines, if you hunt at cons and such.) Somehow, the interpretation of Kirk and Spock together in artwork really fuels the imagination more than any photograph---there's a powerful emotion behind every drawing! And there aren't any photos of them in some of the situations we put them in!! [...] Thanks a lot for letting me do a little adjunct lecture. I'm thrilled to see so many new K/S fans online, and I hope to see some of you over here in the zine world as well. <ref> from [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated/c/7gN6FlGsujs/m/9ItnsipeylQJ?hl=en Kirk and Spock--The Full Monty] (June 2, 1998) </ref>}} Aside from a "welcome to the internet" post by [[Greywolf the Wanderer]] <ref> from [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated/c/iQWQRkpKgbg/m/w-KEk3x52NoJ?hl=en K & S, the Full Monty] (June 4, 1998) </ref>, her post (at least in this public venue) was mostly ignored. This was likely due to lack of support from the [[BNFs]] at [[alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated]] who felt that Butler was "the other" and likely bitter about Butler who they felt was a print fan BNF. ==Topics== ===If Print Zines Aren't Supported, They and Their Community Will Die=== {{Quotation| The main reason I’m concerned that net-based K/S will supplant paper-based K/S is that, in some ways, the net-based K/S world is much more convenient. It’s faster and more immediate and less bother than a potentially embarrassing conversation with the unenlightened folks at the printer. And if you’re suffering from insomnia, it’s right there at three in the morning. Add to all of that the fact that, on the whole, younger people are probably more likely to enter the K/S world via the net, and I hope you can see why some of the print zine fans are worried. If new writers (and readers) think of the net as their one and only home, I’m afraid it’s only a matter of time before the print zines become extinct. I think it is possible and even desirable for the two media to co-exist and complement one another, but I also think that in order for that to happen, everyone involved is going to have to make a special effort to keep the print zines alive. <Ref> from [[The K/S Press]] #22 (June 1998) </ref>}} ===Visibility=== ====Leave Your Clothes Behind==== In May 1998, a [[BNF]] print zine fan wrote about getting her head around this new thing called [[Usenet]]: {{Quotation| The trepidation of the print community is understandable. Our small, very guarded world has exploded, and we have absolutely no control over its expansion anymore. It used to be that only K/S fans read K/S stories (well, except for my husband. I stand over him sometimes and force him to critique something I’ve written. He grimaces, but out of love he does it, and he does have some very interesting comments to make, sometimes!) Now, we know that K/S is being read online by anybody who finds their way to the newsgroup, and of course by all the regular fans there who are addicts of Deep Space Nine, and Next Gen, and Voyager adult and slash stories. Do you see the problem there? It’s as if we’re suddenly told that nudity in the public schools is just fine, and parents, when you come to visit or volunteer in your kid’s classroom, please leave the clothing behind! This is hard to adjust to, and I understand those who feel supremely uncomfortable with it. <ref> from [[The K/S Press]] #21 </ref>}} ==== Who's the Underdog Now?==== {{Quotation| I think that the permanent, physical zine you hold in your hand creates a structure and hierarchy that cannot exist on the web. Physical zines have to be made, carted around to [[cons]], packed, mailed, etc. Something that exists in this type of format would need a pretty solid structure to survive as long as zines have survived, if not become some kind of fetish object. And I'm sure they survived because they were the underground; they were the meeting place for ideas that were not shared by the dominant social group. Now the internet is the underground, and more elusive and ephemeral temporary autonomous zone (TAZ) we might never find again. <ref> 1999 comment by [[raku]] at [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] </ref>}} ===Money Changing Hands=== {{Quotation| For several years I myself was hoping the internet would go away. It seemed economically and technologically elitist; as Raku points out fan fic on the web is free if you can afford a $1,500 computer. [...] So now I have caved in like rotten fruit and am a big internet junkie. <ref> 1999 comment at [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] </ref>}} {{Quotation2| ...my understanding of the "Courts of Honor" scandal is exactly what creeps me out about the zine world.<ref> 1999 comment by [[raku]] at [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] </ref>}} ===Originality and Derisiveness: Who Are the Bold Ones?=== {{Quotation| ...the two stories I've read on the Foresmutters project have not exactly lit my fuse. I wonder why the writers are so restrained, why there's no graphic sex, why they take place in remote locations. Okay, I know this is my problem and I'm working on it. But what's the big deal with these stories? If the theory is that net fic evolved from the lineage of these two examples, I seriously wonder if there wasn't some kind of alien intervention around the late 80's. Please set me straight on this, I neeeeeeeeeed it. : No, I don't think the theory is that net fic evolved from this lineage. There have been many generations in print and I think the net owes very little to any of them. The early stuff is worth reading for other reasons, IMHO, one of them being that it was written when it was a lot riskier to one's fannish well-being to write K/S than it is now. <ref> 1999 comment by [[raku]], response by [[Judith Gran]] at [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] </ref>}} {{Quotation2| Yes, and who ever said that revolution has to be *serious*? I actually think that one of the problems with the current crop of K/S printfen is that K/S has become so respectable and bourgeoisified. There's little fan fic left in TOS print fandom that is *not* K/S. So K/S fen are not the underground any more, they are the mainstream. They are the nice straight housewives. There's no edge left there anymore. IMHO, that is one reason why printfen cringe in horror from the freewheeling diversity and gender-bending of the net culture. I'm toying with the idea of attending the next KSP party at Shore Leave dressed in black leather and an "Internet Bikers From Hell" T-shirt. Print fen make me feel that way these days. [...] I still buy most of the K/S zines that come out, but they seem bland and formulaic after the unfettered creativity of the web. And if it's editorial assistance you want, Web-style beta-reading is far more effective than the editing most [[zineds]] do (i.e. none at all, except for maybe gratuitously re-writing your tragic ending into a happy ending). <ref> 1999 comment by [[Kharmen Ghia]] at [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] </ref>}} ===Lack of Interest in History=== {{Quotation|... t's not always hostility -- in some cases it's unbridgeable ignorance. I know there was lots of writing about K/S before I got going as a web writer, but I can't easily get at it, and now months/years after I've got involved in webfic, the moment has passed when I cared enough to do that kind of research. <ref> 1999 comment by [[raku]] at [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] </ref>}} ===Who Speaks for Who?=== {{Quotation| I truly don't think *all,* or even most, print fans feel that way. I agree that a few, very vocal fans have expressed those sentiments. However, most of them have *not* been in K/S fandom since "the time of the beginning," but became involved during the last ten years or less.<ref> 1999 comment by [[Judith Gran]] at [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] </ref>}} {{Quotation2| [Some comments] seem to assume that zine fandom is built on a deep, strong, monolithic tradition -- Killa did call it "years-deep." And, as a K/S fan who has been active in printfandom for the last 21 years, I just can't buy that. I will be up-front and say that I think that is a myth propagated by printfen who feel, shall we say, "challenged" by the internet. [...] K/S print fandom is not a single line of transmission from the [[The Good Old Days|Time of the Beginning]] to the present; it is a very wide river with many currents and eddies. Nor are the current crop of K/S printfen the lineal heirs of the K/S fen who gave birth to the genre approximately a quarter of a century ago. The current crop of K/S writers have been in fandom for less than a decade, if that. They came into fandom at a time when K/S was well-established and secure. Many of them have not even read the classic stories and novels of the early years of K/S. Those who have, seem to see little of value in the classic K/S works. For example, many of the current crop have not even read the novel "[[Courts of Honor]]" that many K/S [[fen]] consider the pinnacle of K/S writing. Some find it frankly unreadable because it is too complex, too full of ideas, too densely plotted. <ref> 1999 comment by [[Judith Gran]] at [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] </ref>}} {{Quotation| It is true that 90% of the people I have met on the web who have roots in the print zine world have been wonderful folks. The other 10% have not been. Actually, that's a pretty damn good ratio, however, the 10% is like a splinter in the big toe of fanfic for me. I'm doing fairly well at ignoring it, but still, it's there.<ref> 1999 comment at [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] </ref>}} ===Who Validates Who?=== {{Quotation| Net fans feel as though they must compete for validation, and at the same time are resentful of the limitations imposed by a tradition they don't share. Honestly, I have not seen much evidence that net fans desire validation from the printfan community. And I think net fans actually have little reason to need such validation. They are free to write what they want and either post it to the newsgroup or send it to a zine or both. Fan fic is pretty much a seller's market, after all. <ref> 1999 comment by [[Judith Gran]] at [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] </ref>}} ===Newly Created Topics=== From [[Killa]] regarding [[Turning Point (Star Trek: TOS story by Killashandra)|Turning Point]]: {{Quotation| I posted a story on the net last year, never intending it for a zine. But an editor approached me after the fact and asked if she could have it. I said yes. Now I am writing a sequel, and I'm really stuck. I want to post the sequel on the net too, because I promised it to the internet audience months and months ago. But if I do so, I really need to repost the original story! I feel bad possibly taking sales away from the zine editor -- but I posted it to the net first. Now I'm wondering if, from now on, I should refrain from posting my stories on the net to avoid this happening again. Should I have said 'no' when the editor asked me? Do I have to choose? I know I'd be annoyed if I paid a lot of money for a zine full of stories I've read. On the other hand, the sheer numbers of responses you get from net readers are awfully nice. But the last thing I want is for zines to disappear! What's a net-savvy writer to do? Just fishing for opinions here. What does anybody think is the right solution? <Ref> from [[The K/S Press]] #6 (February 1997) </ref>}} ===Some Online Fiction Pulled for Print Zines=== ===No Need for Editors=== A comment from a fan who considered edited stories and zines to be too much gatekeeping: {{Quotation| Now I'm such a junkie of unfiltered fanfic, I don't think I could deal with reading what an editor has picked out for me to read. Why should I have my experience mediated when there is always the immediacy of the web? <ref> 1999 comment at [[COCO CHANNEL Interview with Killashandra]] </ref>}} == Examples of Other Fanwars== * [[Zines and the Internet]] * [[Church of Ford]] * [[The Blake's 7 Wars]] * [[The Beauty and the Beast Wars]] * [[Science Fiction Fandom vs. Media Fandom]] * [[Sherlock Holmes and Star Trek]] * [[Blake's 7 and Star Trek]] * [[Star Trek and Starsky & Hutch]] * [[Star Trek and Space: 1999]] * [[Star Trek and Star Wars]] ==References== <references/>'