SvH-- a sore subject, I know. (Nancy made me do it)

Meta
Title:	SvH-- a sore subject, I know. (Nancy made me do it)
Creator:	taass64 and other fans
Date(s):	19 February 2015
Medium:	online
Fandom:	Starsky & Hutch
Topic:	season finale, related episode
External Links:	SvH-- a sore subject, I know. (Nancy made me do it)
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SvH-- a sore subject, I know. (Nancy made me do it) is a short post by taass64 and subsequent comment by fans. The topic is Starsky & Hutch, the fourth season, and the perplexing episode "Starsky vs. Hutch."

The Post

I know arguments have been made about Starsky making just as many mistakes as Hutch and point well taken. He wasn't a saint either. I admit it. But here, in this argument, it is just the beginning. Hutch clearly ignored the assignments and stole Kira for the evening. Starsky tries to calmly approach the subject and Hutch, in my opinion, gets very defensive and angry very fast. Starsky leaves without the problem being solved and there ya go.... they both end up a mess.

Fan Comments

[taass64, responding to a deleted comment]: I totally agree with what you said. I think Hutch was looking for the fight, or at least expecting it, knowing he was wrong. Starsky was like "we gotta talk" pretty gently, actually, and Hutch first tries to blow him off, then attacks him.

Thats why that scene makes me so sad.

Yes, I do think Hutch and Kira had way more chemistry, although, not enough in my humble opinion. Starsky didn't seem to be a good match for her. But it is so hard to say cuz I don't like her!

Here is what I really wonder... why the scene with Minnie?????? What purpose did that serve. He denies having a thing for her to Minnie, then the next morning reminds Hutch he's been seeing her a month.

[intrigueing]:

I think Starsky mostly makes one mistake, repeatedly, in this episode, which is that he doesn't ask Hutch to explain what's going on with him. He just gets distracted and pissed off and gives up whenever Hutch starts insulting him. Maybe he's afraid that Hutch doesn't want to be friends with him anymore, or completely bewildered as to why he and Hutch are misunderstanding each other so badly, so he just tries to tell Hutch what to do instead of figuring things out, which doesn't work. When he tells Hutch to follow the rules of the assignment, I think he's actually thinking about the rules of the partnership.

I think Starsky probably just thought he was in love with Kira because she very skillfully shows him affection and sets herself up as the only person who understands him right at the moment when she knows he's feeling lost and depressed because his relationship with Hutch is falling apart, and he latched on to her. She's so manipulative.

[marianrose]:

I very much agree that there is a breakdown in their communication that is not explained in the episode itself. Why does Starsky not use his usual approach with Hutch? Normally, he has confidence in his relationship with Hutch. Maybe they can't discuss their feelings directly, but Starsky usually has no trouble communicating his feelings to Hutch and interpreting Hutch's feelings through teasing and competitive games. In this case, he primarily absorbs Hutch's comments and doesn't give back. It almost seems like he has rejected their usual form of communication. Also, if Starsky thinks something is wrong, he normally acts right away. Why does he seem unable to act when he first sees Hutch go after a woman he might love or, at least, doesn't want Hutch to go after? Why does he do nothing when Kira behaves badly toward him (lucky Susan, flirting with Hutch)? He still has affection for Hutch (the brushing of Hutch's sleeve). He still makes love to Kira. But he seems completely cynical about being able to influence either one's bad behavior. It just seems strange to watch Starsky being quiet and resigned about something that could have a huge impact on his and Hutch's life.

In any case, it is a wonderfully interesting episode. We can imagine many stories that lead up to this one. And since the reconciliation scene between Starsky & Hutch is not shown in the ep, we can also imagine many versions of this.

[intrigueing]:

I agree. It's so unlike him. It is mentioned more explicitly in the episode I think -- when he says his spiel to Kira sbout how you're in this life alone and shouldn't take anything seriously, which is such a hopeless un-Starsky-ish attitude, and Kira tells him that's BS. He seems really relieved to hear her say that, and that's when he gets the motivation to tell Hutch he loves Kira, apparently now hoping that actually maybe Hutch *will* listen to him.

I too love how so many different possibilities can be explored in fic through this episode. :)

[marianrose]: Great point. I never thought of that. To the extent that Starsky is testing out his new theory with Kira in that spiel, she does say the right thing. Why Starsky has traded in Me & Thee for this new theory of isolation is something that is not too apparent to me from the episode.

And, you also make a great point that Kira's calling BS on Starsky's spiel would help him feel much better. It would provide motivation to him and hope that Hutch will listen.

[intrigueing]:I guess the theory of isolation could be a coping thing? He's spent the last eight years or so of his life being Hutch's best friend and partner and believing that Hutch felt the same. Now Hutch is acting as if he doesn't even like him anymore. So Starsky would feel like an idiot, like he got tricked into falling for some big lie about lifelong friendship and thinking maybe the truth is that he shouldn't love anyone because it never lasts and just causes pain and grief.

nancys soul:I never felt like Hutch was acting like he didn't like Starsky. It seemed to me that they were on a undercover job where they were supposed to be into women and lonely men at that because what kind of man goes to a place like that. Starsky was just acting jealous because Kiera and Hutch were too into each other and having fun. Do you remember the line where Hutch says to Starsky, "I never thought I'd see the day(paraphrasing)" Starsky says, "what?" You becoming a stuff shirt!" Hutch didn't even know what was going on. They are usually a lot more competitive and fun or at least arguing, Starsky was acting condescending or like a stuff shirt, or like for once in his life he was serious and Hutch wasn't.

[marianrose]: I agree, Hutch doesn't act like he doesn't like Starsky.

I was thinking that it might be one possibility that Starsky, for whatever unknown reason happening before the start of the episode, believes that his partnership with Hutch is ending in some way. In order to cope, maybe he is diminishing the emotional connection he has with Hutch and trying to convince himself that he is better off alone. He might view Hutch's behavior through a distorted lens in this case. Or maybe this is totally wrong. There are so many possibilities. In fact, as I write this, I'm thinking that it sounds pretty far fetched. But it is fun to speculate.

Maybe his jeans finally got too tight...

Or he is rehearsing for a reprise of Camille...

Or he lost all his money on Soon Henry and they are coming to take the Torino in the morning...

[taass64]: If this ep aired correctly it would have been after Huggy Cant Go Home and 90 lbs of Trouble. Airing when it did, it came after Targets [Without a Badge]. No scenario of crumbling partnership. Really, it had to be something at the start of this case that made them go all strange, otherwise Starsky would have no indication that he was losing Hutch. I think your first comment when you sort of said the ep started in the middle of something seems more accurate to me.

[intrigueing]: To blatantly steal ideas from fanfic, it could be that Hutch wasn't actually all that eager to take his badge back at the end of Targets, but he did anyway, maybe because he knew Starsky wanted to and felt guilty that Starsky quit for him, and when he took it back, he resented it, and that turned out pretty much as badly for him as it could be expected to turn out, and then this case came in the middle of the fallout after that.

[marianrose]: I wasn't thinking of crumbling partnership exactly. I was imagining something more along the lines of job change. What if they discussed moving into new positions within the BCPD? No more Zebra Unit. Maybe they want to move on to something else in a few months. Or want to take a promotion. It's likely that they would do something like this at some point. How would each one react? Maybe they would outwardly be fine with it. They might tell each other that they would still be friends, etc. But, maybe each one would have some difficulty with the end of the partnership in this sense and act out in different ways.

[taass64]: Really really good point. The ep opens with them acting really unlike themselves without any explanation at all. So no wonder we are all confused! And yes, if they've been dating, why would Kira go off with Hutch so easily and geez, didn't she know the assignment??? Isn't she part of the team?

nancys soul: This episode is really interesting to me because everyone gets mad at Hutch when he get caught sleeping with Kiera, and what he does in bad, but I still say that most of this is bad communication on both of their parts and I feel that Hutch is still playing their competitive games they(both of them)have been playing and Starsky has stopped and hasn't let Hutch in on that fact. Isn't it interesting that the episode starts with Hutch and Kiera sitting together, giggly and laughing and having a very good ol' flirting time and Starsky stands there pouting? Then we see Hutch and Kiera together at her house looking totally into each other? When we see her with Starsky it pails in comparison to the energy of her with Hutch. When Hutch comes home after being with Kiera he's feeling good and he opens the door and there's his dad sitting up waiting to know why he was out all night and broke his curfew, or at least that is what it seem like Hutch is thinking? Why are you here and acting like my father and an ol' stick in the mud. You're just mad because I out witted you and got to go home with the pretty smart one. They are on two different pages. It reminds me of the time in the second grade and everyone been playing this mean game for several days during recess, if they catch you they would stab you with a pencil. I Was fat and slow and always got poked with the pencil. When we were lining up to go into class on one of these game days, I saw one of the boys that had poked me a lot and he was right next to me and I poked him because finally I could get him. I was so proud and then he started to cry and told the teacher I had poked him with the pencil and I had to stay after school and stand in the corner. No one had told me the game stopped when we were going in. I always think about this when I watch this show.

[daisy june]:The only background that sticks in my mind is that Starsky says he's been dating Kira for a few weeks. So why on earth is Hutch moving in on her? Why? And why is Kira letting him? If she's letting Hutch make moves on her and enjoying it (she is) then clearly she is not on the same page as Starsky in that relationship. He's being let down by both of them, but is only showing his anger at Hutch about it at that point. Hutch and Kira can fall back on the "we are undercover pretending we are in to each other for the assignment" but Starsky thinks it's more than that, and he's not wrong. He wants Hutch to back off and to keep things going with Kira and that's sad to me.

taass64: Yes! Why is Kira letting him? And why isn't Starsky mad at Kira??

nancys soul: Well I had this boy friend who I had dated a long time and one night he and I and a group of friends, one being my friend Donna, went to the movies. In the middle of the movie I reached over to grab my boy friends hand to hold it and he had been sitting with me and holding Donna's hand. Was I mad at Donna? NOPE, i was mad a my boyfriend because Donna was always going after my boy friends and there were very few guys(my husband one one of the few) that could resist her. See, I expected it from her, but I expected more from my boyfriend. My round about way of saying, Starsky didn't really love Kira, she was beautiful and tall and blond, but he wanted to have Hutch say Nope she's off limits and I love Starsky too much. (Kira wasn't really Starsky's type if you think about it more Hutch's) Maybe, these are just thoughts. And maybe Starsky didn't even realize why he was doing what he was doing.

[cinderlight]:

I personally can't believe the theory that Hutch thought they were playing a game and didn't realize the fight was serious. They act like they both think it's serious and they both know it. The scene where Starsky wakes up on Hutch's couch and they yell at each other, no one thinks it's a game there. They've played pretty "mean" games before, and this is nothing like those, not even the one in "Partners." It's ugly and nasty.

However, I agree, I don't think Hutch realized that Starsky loved Kira. This doesn't excuse his behavior, but is pretty understandable: I don't think Starsky really loved Kira either. He thought he loved Kira. From rewatching the episode, the way he acts in the scene where he tells this to Hutch, it's obvious (to me) that he isn't lying, but is unsure and almost trying to convince himself. He's calm, soft-spoken, tries to act affectionate to Hutch, and is polite to him too, offering him coffee, not rubbing the Kira thing in Hutch's face or speaking of it like a victory, admitting he was jealous and smiling apologetically at Hutch when he admits it, thanking him from coming by, very reasonable and pleasant (in contrast to his earlier behavior) and not in the least pushy or gleeful. No way is he lying to win a game.

I don't really care about Kira's chemistry with the partners. People can think they're in love for really stupid reasons, where they look back later and wonder 'what was I thinking'. This has happened to me before. However, maybe consider this explanation for why Starsky would think he was in love with her: Probably he thought he loved Kira because he was desperate for something to make him and Hutch stop fighting, and he fooled himself into thinking he was in love. He would never consider that Hutch would keep going after Kira if Starsky was in love with her. Being in love with her would solve everything, so he convinced himself that he was. It is also mentioned above, that she pretends she understands him and supports him when he's acting really lost.

For Hutch's part, notice that he's perfectly ready to walk out the door when Kira says she loves Starsky. He only has sex with her after being presented with clear evidence that she's not really in love with Starsky, and is a terrible match for him too. He probably knew on some level that it would be good riddance if Starsky and Kira broke up. It's still incredibly cruel of him, because it's such a betrayal, and it hurt Starsky so badly, but I don't think he would have had sex with a woman who could really make Starsky happy. All Hutch's actions in this episode are self-destructive. They are not sadistic. He's wrecking his own life, not trying to wreck Starsky's.

[taass64]: Awesome insight! You make so so many good points! The last bit, I think, a lot of people forget. He was ready to walk out the door. Kira pulled him back in. It doesn't excuse it, he stayed and slept with her once he realized she wasn't as serious about Starsky as Starsky was about her, but his gut instinct was to leave once he believed Starsky was right.

[cinderlight]: Yes, his head is all screwed up, but his heart and gut is mostly still in the right place.

[samudee]: Cinderlight- You've explained the whole thing exactly the way I see it! I could never have been able to express myself this clearly, and when read your comments, I was so sooooo happy that well- now I don't have to put myself through explaining how I feel about the whole thing. I agree with you 100%.

1. It was a surprise when Starsky revealed he 'loved' Kira - One can totally see that in his expression.

2. For some reason Starsky 'believed' he was in love with Kira when he really wasn't!

3. They were not playing games here. They just didn't know what the other person was up to.

4. What Hutch did was wrong - he should've just walked away. No matter who was in love with whom or no matter who was not in love with whom, when your best friend tell you that he loves this woman, you don't go sleep with that woman even if you know that it doesn't makes sense.

He could've explained his situation to Starsky that day at his apartment, without walking away when Starsky was really being nice and friendly and opening up- telling him what he felt. Hutch should've come clean- Most probably he had already slept with Kira, more than once, at that point. So he should've just come clean. Tell Starsky that he's making a big mistake- whatever! He could've talked to him without walking away like he didn't give a damn. The 1st- 2nd- 3rd- season Hutch would never have done that!

Instead of talking to Starsky, he goes and talks to Kira who turns everything around and get him to do what she wanted. And there ...

I's not the fact that Hutch slept with Kira - it is the fact that Hutch sleeps with Kira *after* Starsky tells him that he loved her.

Doesn't matter whether she was a good match or not- Doesn't matter whether Kira liked Hutch better than Starsky. Nothing else matters! When your best friend says 'I love that woman' then you either tell him everything straight, punch him in the face if you have to to get him to see what's going on under his nose. anything! No matter what you do, you do not go sleep with that woman! So... this is really very out of character of Hutch! And that's a fact we have already established, anyway!

[samudee, replying to a deleted comment by DG]: Come on DG! Then it'd be even worse. I mean, if Hutch did this because he felt Starsky had did something wrong, betrayed him, or did something to hurt him- and if this was Hutch's way of 'revenge', he is a real jerk! So I don't even want to think that of Hutch. You don't hurt someone you love, knowingly or intentionally, because that is NOT love! That is being wicked; being very immature.

"What is a Starsky?" The Hutch we know would never say something like that! Not with a woman who is plain with them and words.

And Gillian- Good example. Starsky didn't try to get Gillian to 'sleep' with him to save Hutch. He could've done it very easily to show him 'see she's just a prostitute' - But he approached it in a totally different way. He gave her money to go away to prevent destruction to Hutch.

If Hutch followed example, after Starsky told that he loved Kira, he should've told Kira to 'break it off' with Starsky telling her that carrying on this relationship would end up hurting Starsky- Hutch could've told her "He got to know- Either way, he got to know. You have to tell him. And if you don't tell him tonight, I will tel him the morning!" Imagine how perfect that would've been considering all mirrored events in their partnership?

Hutch did go to Kira and started off with that intention, but then... something else too over him.

I really don't care why Hutch did this, because each one of us can come up with any idea/reason/situation that would explain it in a way that make sense for our own minds. It could all be because a stupid writer, from all we know.

However... If you want my idea of why- The Hutch we all know as he is would do something like this is out of desperation. Or because he just got lost. He wants Starsky to himself, and not just in a slashy way, but even as best friends- in a Gen sense, he wants his friend back to himself because he feels Starsky is slipping away from him.

Again, like Cinderlight said, this is 'self-destruction' - and he knows what he's doing not just to himself, but to his relationship with Starsky as well.

Somewhere in his mind, in a twisted desperate way, he thinks this would either 'fix' them or destroy them. And at that point he just wants one or the other. He can't be in the middle where he doesn't know what's becoming of them.

[taass64]:I always thing this episode just came out of the blue. And I can't understand how it fits in anywhere with what is going on with them in episodes preceding it at either air date. Even given the 4th season differences. It is a mystery. Damn good thing they at least ended with that tag.

[samudee]: Exactly! Makes no sense! Even if they wanted to show that all 'relationships' have 'imperfect' moments. The producers/writers could've done it differently. Out of the blue- here they are in odds with each other, and everything falls apart. Urgh!

[taass64]: Flamingo told me, that it was done purposely, that the guys were making a point, and in the context of the whole season it was supposed to climax the tension, then shift into the whole targets arc.

[taass64]:that "What's a Starsky" line KILLS me, breaks my heart. It is so unlike Hutch, even in jest, to say such a thing. It has actually sparked a story I've been working on.... Yeah, last weekend I watched SvH and that line jumped out at me... I mean it always has, but advice to just write write write about anything encouraged me to write about the line that bothers me so much. Then by coincidence, Nancy posted pics from the episode and my muse woke up. Still in early stages because I'm so busy, but I can't stop thinking about it.

[intrigueing]: Yeah, I agree with this. Either he thought for some reason that ruining Starsky's relationship with Kira would somehow put everything back where it was supposed to be, or he for some reason has started to see their friendship as a burden or something he had become too cynical and jaded to deal with over the course of the season, and he wanted to do something to get free of it.

Also, it's possible that he could have, on some level, thought he was doing it to help Starsky. Like, perhaps he felt like he wasn't able to be a good partner and keep Starsky safe anymore, or that he was dragging Starsky down with him, and subconsciously he wanted to do something to make Starsky believe that Hutch was unworthy of his friendship and leave him alone.

This isn't as weird as it sounds -- I have seen people with depression or other issues (and cops are very susceptible to developing this, especially when they are sensitive and caring people like Hutch) who are convinced that the best relationship in their lives - whether it's with a family member, a child, a spouse, a friend, a community group - the one thing that is keeping them afloat, giving them some measure of happiness, is nothing but a huge hassle to everyone involved, because it stops them from slipping into a state of peaceful apathy. They can see the pain the struggle to stay afloat causes themselves and their loved one(s), but don't feel that they are worth that struggle. So actually, I don't think DG's observations about how weird and inconsistent Hutch acts here is unreasonable at all.