S&H Slash Virtual Season Mailing List

Mailing List
Name:	S&H Slash Virtual Season Mailing List ("SHSeason")
Date(s):	June 24, 2001
Moderated:
Founder(s):	Candy and the Zebra3 Productions team
Type:
Fandom:	Starsky & Hutch
URL:	S&H Slash Virtual Season Mailing List, Archived version
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S&H Slash Virtual Season Mailing List was a Starsky & Hutch restricted mailing list.

About

A list for discussion of the Starsky & Hutch Slash Virtual Season (produced by Zebra3 Productions), where you can share your thoughts on the episodes with other fans and/or the Virtual Season team. This list may deal with mature subject matter; therefore, we ask that no one under legal age in their area join.

Its Announcement

From an announcement on VenicePlace, a private Starsky & Hutch mailing list: "The Zebra3 Productions team has established a new list on Yahoogroups for folks who would like to discuss the episodes "airing" on the Starsky & Hutch Slash Virtual Season. To join, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHSeason. Hope to see you there! :)"

Controversary Regarding Its Creation

Fannish reaction to the formation of the list was appears to be more active than the content of the resulting mailing list. There was discussion regarding:

• the splintering of fandoms
• Starsky & Hutch as a tiny fandom
• the ability of fans to spread themselves over multiple fandoms, the limitations of attention and interest
• power and influence and control and gatekeeping
• the new reality of the internet and its ability for information to be readily available, instantaneous, and curated
• private information on private lists

Some Sample Comments

The decision to form yet another new SH slash list was accomplished in two days without sufficient discussion with the membership. It was not possible for me to be on line during this time so when I logged on this morning I discovered that a proposed "discussion of the membership" consisted of 6 people being in favor of it out of 28. That's not a discussion, it's not even a quorum. This morning, before I realized that the decision had already been made, I sent the following to the list membership:

I have already been *very* public in my feelings on how the multiplicity of lists in this small fandom have divided it to the point that it is impossible to communicate effectively with the fandom any longer. In a time when so many people are slash butterflies, moving from fandom to fandom so quickly they have no time to really learn much about it, the proliferation of lists dilutes the effectiveness of the fandom community. More lists do not promote more discussion, they dilute the discussion already in progress. It's like throwing a con for 100 people on a specific weekend when there are no other cons, and then, because it was such a success, 5 other cons decide to hold their events the same weekend the following year. Now there are less than 20 people at each con. This doesn't help a community grow, it divides it.

There are already 3 slash lists devoted to this small fandom, 4 if you count the Pits which is mixed. And since it is very difficult to get people to speak objectively or critically about fiction at *all* I can't see how having a discussion list for the virtual season -- where everyone knows the authors would definitely be present and tuning in -- will encourage people to speak critically about these stories. We have drummed for critical discussion of stories on VP and even when the list knows the authors aren't present it is almost impossible to get people to voice their opinions. Forming another list for the season will merely eliminate discussion about the season from other lists, and since any possible discussion about the slash season might help generate more discussion about SH slash on these established lists, it will eliminate that avenue as well. Just keeping discussion going on the established lists is a frustrating enough task. Fragmenting the discussion topics into more and more finite subject matters just divides a small fandom further.

Ten minutes later I felt pretty foolish when I realized it was already done. To find it then advertised on my own list -- where I have discussed at considerable length how detrimental I feel additional discussion lists on more and more finite topics are, did not please me, to say the least. I cannot support the further fragmenting of the tiny community this way and am seriously considering -- with tremendous reluctance -- withdrawing my support from SHSVS. It pains me to do so, but considering that this decision was made on a topic I have been repeatedly very vocal about without giving me any chance for input, or the other 19 members as well, I don't know what else to do.

I'm just going to make a few general comments on this subject, and then my on-list rehashing of it is over.

First off, it leaves me slack-jawed that formation of another list is considered "competition" for VP. What are we? Wal-Mart and K-Mart here? Is there some profit margin I'm missing out on? I thought this was something we all did for enjoyment. I'm hearing some fairly level-headed replies from people simply stating "I don't want to be on another list so I'm not joining it." Isn't that sufficient? It seems bizarre to take steps to *stamp out* other lists.

It also never occurred to me that announcing a new list on VP would be forbidden. I do apologize for that transgression. No wonder I was dumbfounded after doing a Yahoo search and discovering that yes, Starsky and Hutch was actually alive and well elsewhere on the Internet and there *were* other lists. I only found out that I was missing out on other discussions because some other fans happened to start mentioning list names to me--ironically, a Sentinel fan steered me toward a couple. I knew about ThePitsFic, but that was about it. Again, I never dreamed that information on other fannish lists wouldn't be freely shared on VP if they existed--in case some of us who liked it here, would also enjoy those lists as well. I never would have thought we'd retreat to our corners and view each other as competitors. This has been an eye-opener.

[name redacted] makes some good points about the fact that much of what's accomplished on all these separate lists could probably be accomplished on one list. BUT--she further states there are a number of reasons for separate lists, and truthfully, not all of them are rooted in human foibles or eccentricities or grabs for power. VP is a delightful, humorous, warm, friendly place to be. It is a place inhabited by a number of friends who've known each other for years. There are lots of humor posts and inside jokes and banter. That's great for those of us who've hung out in fandom for a number of years, and maybe have met each other at cons--and probably terrific for some newbies, too. To some new fans, it can not only make them feel like outsiders, but also fill up their inbox with posts they have no interest in--especially if these are folks just starting to get interested in S&H. Sure, you can delete, but if you belong to a lot of lists--possibly in numerous fandoms--maybe you prefer not to *download* forty messages just so you can delete twenty of them again. Maybe you'd prefer to streamline your fannish experience down to the parts of it that interest you. Sure, that can be done by sifting through all the posts on a more general list, or you can join SHSeason. Or Hutchfans. Or SlashStarskyHutch. Or the SH Basketweavers Association--or whatever.

I've seen a number of lists split off from the primary Sentinel slash discussion list, and you know what? It still has over 700 members at last count, and I'm pretty sure the primary slash fiction list is at over 1100. We may have lost a few to "splinter" lists, but those we lost weren't happy with the list culture anyway. New people joined, the list sputtered a little, regained momentum, and moved on.

New people join VP all the time, the traffic crests and ebbs, but it endures. A new list shouldn't be viewed as a horrible threat to that. It isn't. As [name redacted] so reasonably pointed out, if people don't choose to join it or discuss anything on it, it'll die a natural death. Some of the Sentinel lists have essentially croaked, either officially or through attrition, and some have flourished. The primary list is still there, and still home to a core of fans who wouldn't want to leave.

For the record, I would be delighted to see virtual season episode discussion here. Or on ThePitsFic, or SlashStarskyHutch, or any of a number of other slash lists where appropriate. SHSeason is merely an outlet for folks who would like to chat about the season there rather than elsewhere, for whatever their reason may be. It was an idea suggested to us by our readers--which is why we thought of doing it in the first place.

If people have been offended by the start up of this list, that's regrettable, but since one of the purposes of the SHSVS is to increase and enhance the internet presence of Starsky & Hutch and thus draw in new fans, I stand by the decision to form it. Chances are that when they get tired of discussing the episodes, they're going to go looking for something more--like the archive Flamingo maintains and assembles so beautifully, or the other fannish websites...or VP. I would have liked to view this new list as a sort of "on ramp" into SH fandom for new people who weren't ready for the big leagues yet, as Starsky would say. ;) I think it's a shame that it's viewed as some sort of "competition" or threat to VenicePlace. <

I'm not sure where you got the idea of multiple lists resulting in fan apathy. Not reading stories posted to lists, or reading them and not commenting, has nothing to do with the topic of multiple lists fragmenting fandom(s).

I think writers and posters should be allowed to complain about lack of comment all they want, but I fail to see what it has to do with creating more lists.... If a list member doesn't join in a discussion (and I'm assuming the list doesn't have some strange rules about posting), it's the list member's responsibility, not the list. You either find the courage to jump in or you don't, but the courage comes from the list member. ENcourageMENT comes from the list, and I've always found this list encouraging to all members and a very vocal proponent of free speech.

And let's face it, each and every list ever created is going to intimidate someone, therefor starting a list just so people won't feel intimidated is as hopeless a cause as starting a list just so no postings will ever be deleted--you can't guarantee either won't happen.

So why start a new list instead of just a different thread? Seems to me it always goes back to the same basic reasons: To include some and exclude others.

...it doesn't matter how many or how few lists a fandom has if the fans don't make an effort to keep it alive. You can have one very active list that promotes the hell out of its fandom keeping it vital and strong, gives feedback of whatever kind on stories written, keeps intelligent, honest discussion going or you can have a dozen lists where no one does anything at all. Or vice-versa. It's not the numbers that count but what those numbers are doing that make the difference.