Oh goody. round 3.45 billion of "the writer is god and every word is sacred"
| Meta | |
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| Title: | Oh goody. round 3.45 billion of "the writer is god and every word is sacred" |
| Creator: | Mary the Fan |
| Date(s): | January 18, 2005 |
| Medium: | journal post |
| Fandom: | |
| Topic: | |
| External Links: | oh goody. round 3.45 billion of "the writer is god and every word is sacred" - Mary the Fan, Archived version |
| Click here for related articles on Fanlore. | |
Oh goody. round 3.45 billion of "the writer is god and every word is sacred" is an essay by Mary the Fan.
For additional context, see Timeline of Concrit & Feedback Meta.
Some Topics Discussed
- Feedback and Concrit
- hurting other fan's feelings
- splintering of fandoms
- feedback is a form of fanwork
- public discussion of fics
Some Related Posts
- my delicate butterfly soul is cooking like an egg in mary's glass house, Archived version by Betty Plotnick
- "Anatomy of the fannish butterfly (and troll)" by mayoi humbert
The Post
Because everything a writer produces in a story is sacred and pure and good, but you people who say bad things about other people's fanfic, your words are WORTHLESS and NOT ALLOWED.
Because in fandom, some people are more equal than others, you know. I find that, usually, it's the writers.
Very nice.
Listen, and lemme be clear: I've seen discussion about this that draws a line between cruelty and critique, between mockery and criticism, but you know where I've NOT seen that discussion? In abundantlyqueer's LJ, where this round started, because comments from people who disagree are being deleted. In a post that's supposedly about LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD NO MATTER HOW THEY TRY TO KEEP YOU DOWN OMG. Hypocritical, much?
So I suppose I'll put my 11 cents here, as I don't want anyone to keep me down omg.
I generally try to promote civility. I'm not a big fan of mockery, I tend to stay away from places that engage in it, but you know what? My "omg :cries:" post about Orlando abuse stories isn't even off the front page of my LJ yet, so I have to be careful how I cast stones. And I've always believed that we share the toys in the fandom sandbox, and if writers are going to go around doing that sort of ravaging thing to characters I love, if they're going to savage characters I love, I should have the right to say something about it. You may think the way I do it is offensive, but frankly, I find some of the stories that people write offensive. And talking about what we read/watch/hear is what fans do. It's what makes us fans. It's contrary to our very nature to not talk about the media we consume, it's why we're here - in fandom - in the first place. So I've always promoted the right of the reader to talk about what they're reading, too. And I don't know where AQ is drawing the line on this, maybe there is supposed to be a line drawn somewhere in that rant between Lord of the Flies and honest criticism, but what comes through in that rant is that stories are sacred expressions of a writer's delicate butterfly soul. OK. Fine. Then so are the responses to stories. A writer's words are no more sanctified because they're in story format than anyone else's words are. You don't have to have some kind of training and be paid, in order to say something critical about a story, all you have to is read the thing and have a opinion. Because the reader's words matter, too.
I also do not believe in coddling the poor ickle writers and enabling "OMG my feelings are hurt, I'm never writing again!" behavior. Rather than cocooning people in cotton wool, how about we teach them healthy reactions to criticism and mockery? How about we teach them to recognize how much worth any particular commentary on their story has and therefore how much attention they should actually pay to it? How about we teach them that, in fact, sometimes an eyeroll and the palm of the hand - or even laughter - are the appropriate reactions to what people say about your stories, and that other times there might actually be something constructive that can help you, in what's being said, and how to recognize the difference? Because you know what? That is another part of being a strong writer, that is empowerment of writers, and that's what needs to be encouraged to keep people writing, not some exhortation to flood a fandom with all the "shite fanfic" you can crank out.
Seriously, some of the most fun I've ever had with criticism of one of my stories was laughing over what was said when Skateland was part of the "OMG ALL RPS SUXXORZ" post over on the Fic Bitches LJ, and part of that was possible because I was part of a community that had a two-fold response: A) to discuss why all RPS in general and the stories skewered in particular did not actually, in their opinion, suxxor and B) to laugh about it. To not take it too seriously.
Then again, I am the girl who fills out the "Feedback:" part of list headers with "Hit me. Good, bad ... it's all attention." I'm currently aghast that no one is responding to the first SeSa post on twist_of_lemon because I fear that means whoever runs that thing will give up on it before they get to MY STORY OMG. I am an attention hor.
Hit me, baby, one more time.
Comments at the Post
[apetslife]:I agree, so much, with your point about the healthy reaction to criticism. And mockery, which is bound to come if a person's in a public forum. It's not so much that I think people should ignore it, or just laugh it off (of course it stings, especially when it's from people whose writing and opinion you respect!), as it is that I think they we should be able to step back a little and laugh at the stupid, while considering and absorbing the constructive, helpful feedback. Maybe just not take it all so seriously. I can't believe people are comparing fanfic to Martin Luther King, Jr.
It's funny, too, not all con-crit is good. Sometimes it's absolutely WRONG, or the person clearly didn't actually read the story, or their handle on the grammar/usage issues they're addressing is shaky at best. But hey. That's what makes it fun. *grin*
[crazybutsound]:Amen.
See, I don't condone gratuitous cruelty either, but it annoys me so much when people try to make stories untouchable in the sense that laughing about a story is laughing about its author (which in my opinion it is not). Plus, I have learned a LOT more from people mocking things I had written than from people who practice the "live and let live" policy... why? Because said people don't like badfic any more than I do but instead of doing something to help the writers improve, they do... well, nothing. So there. I'm glad someone took the time to put into words what AQ's post made me feel. And the part where discussion is not allowed? OMG! That made me even more annoyed than any mockery ever would.
[carasgaladhon]:Rather than cocooning people in cotton wool, how about we teach them healthy reactions to criticism and mockery? How about we teach them to recognize how much worth any particular commentary on their story has and therefore how much attention they should actually pay to it?
Thank you. Good lord, yes. AQ's post seems to be missing the pretty large fact that criticism is what makes a writer's work better. Writing is NOT like dropping fully-formed pearls from your mouth -- it's dirty, hard, bloody and sweaty work, and there's always room for improvement. It's also one of the best damn ways to spend your time, and I wouldn't give it up for the world.
While I understand lots of people claim to be doing it for fun and don't care about honing skills/learning to write better, I have a lot of trouble processing that. I mean, isn't anything more fun the better you are at it?
I would guess that if you were in a sport like fencing and did it just for fun, you'd still want to get better at it, because how amusing is it if you keep dropping your guard and getting poked in the eye over and over and over again for lack of practice? Bad analogy, I know, but as a reader I know that I have a limited amount of patience for writers who spew out tripe and expect pats on the head for managing to pound a couple random keys in succession, and even for writers that might have good ideas but don't give a crap about presentation. Last time I checked, writing was supposed to be a "craft," and I'm pretty sure that means something along the lines of "creating with great skill and care," not "Look, Mommy, I glued some macaroni to a piece of cardboard!"
I don't advocate flaming and hate comms, but like a number of people have said in various places over this issue, if you're so delicate a flower that you crumple the first time someone says something even slightly less-than-complimentary about your work, then you're probably not meant to be a writer. If you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, give the fb a good once-over and take something away from it that'll improve your work, OTOH, you probably are meant to be one, at least in some capacity.
*eyeballs comment* Er. Sorry. I'll stop foaming at the mouth now. >_<
[fhyssj]:Hmm, I partly agree, and I partly don't...
I'm actually in the private-criticism camp -- I don't mind the emails, I'll tweak if I agree with the comments, and I'll do my best to discuss it civilly. And I've accepted public criticism comes with the game, and people actually *enjoy doing it*, and who am I to pee in their cornflakes? I don't partake in it myself, personally, because I'd rather focus my fannish energies on encouraging the stuff I do like as I've found that route reaps the greatest rewards (for me, the reader), but I know not everyone is like that. My fannish activities are all about low-key enjoyment.
My problem with criticism actually comes from the inability some people have to separate legitimate criticism from personal taste/opinions/reactions. I read that whole twist_of_lemon post about that story of mine, and you know, a lot of it was helpful. I've tried to include more dialogue, and use betas more often, and work on my narrative skills, and tone down my zeal for natural human bodies. I was all about keeping an open mind until one of the women running the thing, the *moderator* of the whole schebang, dimissed me and my fic entirely by saying that most of my so-called popularity stemmed from the fact I was part of the "old guard." That felt personal, and I was afraid that I was reading too much into it, until someone else, a person I don't even know, commented on the exactly same thing, reacting the exact same way. I felt attacked, so even when the option was open for authors to respond, I didn't feel at all comfortable doing so. Of course, someone is always going to say something dumb, so I probably should have just laughed, but at the time, I couldn't. Do I regret that now? Yes, I do actually.
(As an aside, I laugh a lot now -- especially with the whole Rhyss-misspelling thing, because it's RHYS, dammit, four letters, and I have a whole stand up routine, practically, about being the fannish equivalent of, like, a band from the 70's, who's still touring and playing Las Vegas and getting bad plastic surgery).
So is my problem with anonymous criticism? I don't know. Because nothing's ever truly anonymous, not if you're paying attention, so more often than not, I know exactly who's saying what. Is my problem with the public aspect? Maybe a little bit, but that's a personal thing, and I'd never say otherwise. Some people, like you, enjoy the attention. Other people, like me, really don't. :)
I don't know, but while I think criticism is helpful, tastes and opinions masquerading as criticism is not. I've kind of resigned to myself to the latter, though, and that's what has made me wary of the good, helpful forms, because you never know where it's going to lead. Though, with me, I usually do, as I'm a glorified misogynist with body issues and the ability to brainwash my fans.
[merryish]::: '''cries''' ::
This post hurts me in my delicate butterfly soul.
:: cries :: :: flees fandom 4-EVAH! ::
:: stops to support [[Faq]] in email ::
[cathexys]:i never understand the 'i'm a sucky writer and i need to be heard' argument. i know i'm not a great writer, so i may write but just don't impose it on others. it all comes back to the old writing as community building vs writing as art/craft thing, but as a person who feels perfectly happy most of the time to play with fannish things without writing fic, i don't see the huge cry of outrage...
great rant!!!!
[xoverau]: If this ~~~~~~~<===3 or this (.)(.) offends you enough that you write a cryptic friendslocked post you later delete, you pass. :) Points for bringing up the objectification of women and how things never used to be this smutty in the fandom, and how innocent children might see.
[nopseud]:Basically, yes, I agree. So these are just a few random, mostly unconnected paragraphs.
I remember that ficbitches post, and the way that they were deluged with recs. That's one of the great, if slightly scary, things about RPS. More than any other fandom I've seem, all some hapless new fictim (heh -- I think I'll let that typo stand) has to do is express a twitch of vague interest and they're drowning in recs and enthusiastic people trying to haul them bodily into the fandom.
twist_of_lemon disappoints me, and I find it really hard to make the effort to read it. I just can't get interested in a discussion where there's no way to follow the thread of an argument because it's virtually impossible to tell which posts are related to each other. I wish someone would start a fiction dicussion community without the anonymity rule. On the other hand, I'm vaguely depressed by the possibility that if someone did start a place for honest, open discussion, then people wouldn't feel comfortable posting there.
I like people talking about my stories, especially if they're actually *discussing* them, in a what works/what doesn't work/this was a good bit/this was a bad bit/this wasn't clear sense. If someone says, 'I found this story slow, and not very engaging', then I'm interested and I want to know why. Partly this is because I don't think it's ever too late to rewrite. And, yeah, sure there's a difference between discussion and vindictive flaming. I've been trashed in hate threads. But you know what? People told me my name had come up, and I just didn't go read the thread. Problem solved.
Maybe I should make myself a feedback form which includes prompts for crit. That would nicely fill up some time I'm supposed to be writing in. Or I could have another gin and tonic. Hmm.
I vaguely wonder where this 'OMG respect the creative urge!' leaves the published authors, and TV writers and actors, and IP owners, and other interested parties who have said they don't like fanfic being written about their characters. Are their artistic souls being violated? Do they get wept over too? Should I delete all my Blakes 7 slash in case Paul Darrow or [insert name of uptight guy who now owns B7 IP] find it? Or are those people exempt from protection because they get paid and, anyway, we don't know them personally?
[halimede]:What I wanted to say was, though I'm fine with public discussion of stories, is that what you're saying here sounds a lot like the people in the Blues club wanting to determine the playlist in the Jazz club. Fandom isn't one place, there are many fannish neighbourhoods under the same source material. And trying to change each other's 'playlists' is just going to be frustrating for everybody involved.
But then I'm laid back about what fandom is. You make your own, is my definition. And you take it with you. Where ever two or more fans hang out being squeeful about some show or other counts, IMO. The self-policing gives me the willies. I like the common sense fannish conventions such as disclaimers, no plagiarising etc., but when it veers towards something *content* based, it makes me distinctly uncomfortable.
[mary the fan]:Yeah, I think that it's often a better idea to stick to the Blues club when what's going on in the Jazz club makes you want to spork out your eyeballs - I think popslash fandom is generally a good example of that. What happens in the section of popslash fandom that we move in is so much removed from some other sections of it - the ones that occasionally make forays onto poptoryfinders looking for stories in which Karen hates and starves JC, and Dale and Tony give him food in exchange for blowjobs behind the scenes at MMC until Justin rescues him, heh - that in the past, I've had to work to convince some people in the Blues club that the Jazz club over there actually exists. :g: But sometimes there isn't another club, let alone another neighborhood. My snark about the lotrips fandom is exponentially less now than it was when most of those linked posts were written, and I think that's at least partially because back then, the fandom was basically small and centralized and there was no Blues club to go to. Once the LJ culture developed some more, I could tailor my experience - that fandom's so big now that I don't know the half of what goes on in it, and I have other options.
But I also wonder if we don't do ourselves a disservice sometimes by being so quick to splinter, fannishly. I wonder if we didn't have to learn how to live with each other better when there were fewer lists and things were more centralized and you had to have at least some skills at getting along with other people because our choice of clubs was limited.
At any rate, now that I've rambled :g:, I guess what I'm really thinking about when I talk about influencing future depictions and discussion isn't policing so much as having the chance, when one person writing slut!Orlando turns into five people writing slut!Orlando turns into 50 people writing slut!Orlando and suddenly his generally accepted characterization is that he's the cast bicycle, to say "Er. WTF? Where are you getting this from, and you do realize that the boy probably couldn't get gang-banged by 10 people a night and still have kept up that filming schedule, right?" - and maybe having people who had simply accepted the idea that Orlando was the cast slut actually think about whether that characterization stood up. And then, hey, maybe they like slut!Orlando, but at least then it's a choice and not a default.
(Not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with Orlando being, you know, all slutty and stuff. I particularly like him in the middle of an Elijah and Sean Bean sammich. Heh.)
[halimede]:You know, I never experienced the fannish dearth back in the mailing lists day. Seems to me there was always another mailing list to go to, and special interest groups formed pretty quickly. Also, on lists I found it pretty easy to live and let live: you filter by choosing which threads to participate in, and which not. Only occasionally will the life go out of a list completely and content turn into the web equivalent of riding a bike through wet sand. I realize this is a very Dutch metaphore. *g*
I think the big thing that I miss about mailing lists, is a list culture developing. One of the big things on LJ that sets people off is the level of formality. Both super-casual and more formal styles can read as really effing rude to people, if they're sort of not expecting them, or not used to a person's given way of communicating. I think some of the 'could use more people skills' thing lies there, without context it's extremely *difficult* to be polite in a way the other party will recognize. And somehow, with the flist system, it takes longer to get to know individuals quirks then on a list where you all adapt to each other a bit.
And yeah, discussion of fannish tropes is *coooooool*! And interesting, and often fertile. But the line between that and raining on people's happy, fic-kink parade can be blurry, especially if they have long toes.