The (Original) Mary Sue Litmus Test

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Title: The (Original) Mary Sue Litmus Test
Creator: Melissa "Merlin Missy" Wilson
Date(s): December 1997 [1]
Medium: online
Fandom: Gargoyles-centric
Topic:
External Links: Merlin Missy's Mary Sue Litmus Test; also here
Click here for related articles on Fanlore.

The (Original) Mary Sue Litmus Test was written in 1997 by Merlin Missy for the Gargoyles fandom.

The author updated, added to it, and tweaked it many times over several years. [2]

This test was highly discussed, and emulated by other fandoms.

Two related essays are Mary Sue, Who Are You?, another essay by Merlin Missy, written in 2006.

For more about these sort of tests, see Mary Sue Litmus Test.

A Highly Controlled 'Verse

Merlin Missy claimed copyright for the term and practice, and was a gatekeeper to fans who wanted to create similar tests in other fandoms. See How Do I Go About Writing a Mary Sue Litmus Test? (2001) for some of these rules, a few which are excerpted below:

  • Merlin Missy considered herself the gatekeeper of this type of fanwork, making it not unlike her 'verse
  • fans needed to ask permission to write one for their own fandom, and Merlin Missy had the right to deny them, not unlike an unauthorized sequel
  • Merlin Missy resented the time and energy it took to scour the internet to see if there was already a similar one out there, as "there's no fandom that needs two tests"
  • a fan's litmus test needed a link to the original
  • based on the number of Mary Sues in a proposed fandom, Merlin Missy decided if a fandom even needed a test at all

Following the Author to the Ends of Time

The test was highly promoted on Firefox News, both with internal links in other essays on that site and mentions of the essay in Merlin Missy's own essays.

Ten years later, Merlin Missy wrote of her frustration that this original test (which she refers to as "my little screed") had been so widely read, referenced, and been used in ways she did not intend. See Mary and Me.

Twelve years later, Merlin Missy wrote about the not-altogether welcome endurance of this essay:

There is a law, which may or may not be named, which goes thusly: there's a rant or a story or a meta that you will eventually post somewhere, and it will be something you don't necessarily feel in the morning (or maybe you will) but it will almost certainly not be something you put every possible effort into, just something that you shot off because you were on fire or annoyed or inspired. Just one post. And it has your handle on it, and it will follow you until the end of time. For me, that's the Mary Sue Litmus Test. End. Of. Time. [3]

Parts and Points

Fans were asked a series of questions regarding the topics below. Each topic had various points assigned to them.

Possible Points: 117 (assuming some questions obviate the rest) Preliminary testing suggests the following basic scoring scheme:
0-14 Developed character, unlikely MS.
15-19 Borderline character. Characters in this range are potential MS's, who can go either way dependent on the author's skill.
20+ Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Proceed with greatest caution.
35+ Reconsider your character and plot. Please.

  • The Name Game
  • Physical Attributes
  • Personal Traits
  • Super Powers
  • The Love Connection
  • The Real World and Your Character
  • The Fiendish Plot

Excerpts

Since its publication, I've received a bit of commentary on "Dr. Merlin's Guide," and fortunately for my ego, it's been positive feedback. However, there has been some concern about the section on Mary Sue-ism; specifically, many authors have talked to me and my associates about characters of their own, worried that said characters will be granted the dreaded appellation. First of all, not every original character is a Mary Sue. Most original characters are not, and for this, we may all be glad. On the other hand, Gargoyles fandom is filled with them, and only a few realize it. This test has been designed to help an aspiring author determine whether his or her character is a Mary Sue, or is simply another addition to the megaverse that is fanfiction. Scoring is simple -- for every question answered "Yes," (even if it's "technically yes, but," still count a yes) add the number of points in brackets to your score. Be honest; you're not helping yourself by saying "But it doesn't really count because ... " The higher your score, the more likely it is the character is a problem, or worse, is a retread of an hundred characters exactly like him/her/it.

Note for those who are going to come after me with pitchforks: yes, many of the following traits were drawn from "Gargoyles" and "Star Trek" fanfic. Just as many, though, have been drawn from my own stories, characters who saw the light of day only in my mind and were mercifully executed before they made their way into published stories. I know whereof I write. Consider this my way of trying to help.

Okay, so you've taken the test, and the character in question has failed miserably. You're stuck with a conundrum: should you write this wonderful story you have in your head? How can you do it without your character? I can't answer that for you. There are plenty of wonderful stories out there with characters who fit an alarming number of these traits, and still manage to be excellent fiction with interesting characters. The authors in question knew what they were doing when handling a character of this type, and pulled it off well. On the other hand, there are a disturbingly large number of stories in the same places with very painful examples of the above in them. Some of them helped inspire the test. In the end, your own common sense must be the judge.

If you see too many traits in common with your own character, can you change the character accordingly? Does the character have to be, or look, sixteen? Can you tell the exact same story with just the regulars? (You'd be amazed how often a little imagination can make this work, sometimes with even better results. Try it.) Does the character have to save the day? Must he/she be such an integral part of the story? Can you use the character instead as a means of examining the reactions of the regulars (to something other than the character's demise)? Can you give the character a major flaw? (Being unable to sing is not a major flaw. Being a gargoyle who is afraid of heights is a major flaw. Being socially inept can be a major flaw.)

I have one piece of advice to impart. (You knew this was coming.) When creating a new character, no matter of what species, at his or her most basic level, the character will be human, because the author will be human. The audience will also be human, and will relate to the character on those terms. Yes, your character might have wonderful magical powers, and that is fun to fantasize about having for yourself. At the same time, your character also has fears, and wishes, and dreams, and s/he will make mistakes, sometimes painful ones. Not everything your character does can be perfect and good. Humans don't work that way. We say stupid things sometimes, and get wrapped up in ourselves, and we step on the feelings of other people whether we mean to or not, and we laugh at dumb jokes, and we smell bad when we sweat, and we drool on our pillows.

If you really want to make an original character, give him or her bad habits, and good ones, and thoughts you don't necessarily share. Have the relationship not necessarily work out, especially right from the start. Even Goliath and Elisa didn't admit their feelings until they'd known each other for two years and a really long cruise. First and last of all, be real. The fantasy will make itself.

Fan Reactions

Other Mary Sue Litmus Tests

Fans created many other "Litmus Tests" for their fandoms.

Fan Comments

[Lord Gensereck]: Well, I must say this was a very interesting read. First of all, I must say as well that I thank u for your advice, and will see, on how to fix my character.... Second, what are some of your writings, I need to see some, to confirm what I have just read, and third... Well, thanks again. You have taught me alot in these 10 minutes I spent reading this.. And I shall ponder my characters existance for the moment...[4]

[Felice]: This is cute, but it overlooks the problem with Mary Sue. There is nothing wrong with a self-insertion, Dickens, Ian Flemming, Jane Austin and a thousand other writers have done it. The problem with the work of little girls is that they are little girls, the selves they have to insert are unformed and not very interesting except to other little girls. The rest of their writing, sans Mary Sue, isn't going to be any better. So really, you're writing an essay about the symptom that has little to do with the actual disease.[5]

[unknown user]: wow... this is awesome. everyone alive should read this. scratch that, everyone who's ever lived at all should read this. ...you know-, you know what? amen, brotha'! preach it! yeah! my host of Borderline characters love you! uh, well... okay, so only the ones that read books. but, YEAH![6]

[unknown user]: This was extremely helpful. I'm very glad to have found this. Now I can edit my borderline ms' and work on my anti-sues. Thank-you very much for making this available. And in response to Felice, you are the uninformed one. I have read many stories by "little girls" and though many of them are mary-sue ridden, there are also many that have well-developed character. So mary-suism is not a disease relegated to only young girls.[7]

[Gladys]: Hey. I liked it, but my character has wings because EVERYONE in that book has wings and she's not exeptionally better than them at flying. Also, everyone in that book was kidnapped/adopted.has a tragic past. Or, ll the main characters do. Maximum Ride by James Patterson. Shouldn't that count? [8]

[bounty93]: I am an aspiring writer and this really showed me the light. Just by reading this through I have made major changes that will really make my character better.[9]

[unidentified]: Is being a Mary Sue good or bad? I am confused. [10]

[unknown user]: Yeah, you tell 'em! Word.[11]

[Anna]: I thought this was really great and helped me realize how much I need to work on my OC. Although, I'm still unsure on how to change them to make my story better. All of their "Mary-Sue-isms" tie into the plot in one way or another. I can't exactly take them out... I'll try to keep modifying things though.[12]

[Alis]: So this is the original... Thank you for writing it, I've found it very useful in my writing. Just a word of advise for those crusading against Mary Sues. BE NICE. Don't scare the poor writers away from ever writing again. And DON'T comment in all-caps, no matter how tempting it is[13]

[Nuthatch]: Very amusing, and really quite well done! Also, most of your questions are helpful, but a couple do need tinkering—unless this is only for fan fictions. For example, you ask if the original character is introduced on the first page—well, yeah, she's the main character in an original universe. How many pages am I supposed to wait? Also, she has many character issues that I think should detract points—she has much less magic than her average companion, she's somewhat stuck-up, can be very aloof (and yes, that includes people who don't deserve the treatment), is bossy, etc. This is good, it's just not foolproof.[14]

[Reader]: I've used these litmus tests several times, they helped me a lot in developing my character. However, I am puzzled as to why having the same gender as the character will garner points. Besides that, it is a good way to test for a Mary Sue.[15]

[Akira Cat]: This article is a really interesting read. It has given out some valuable points too. And yes, I confess, I use the Litmus test to see if my characters are Mary-Sues/Gary-Stus. And fortunately, none of them seem to be one so far.[16]

[unknown user]: This was very useful for me and my best friend in developing our OCs. We seriously didn't like our OCs (Mine was a Borderline and his (my friends) was a MS). Thanks to your quiz and tips, we've made better OCs. And to Nuthatch, I have several a books where the main character(s) weren't introduced 'til the 2nd or 3rd chapters. Or in other words, it isn't nessesary to introduce the main character right away. Sure, it it's uncommon, but it doesn't nessesarily hurt the story, either. Just my thoughts on that.[17]

[C Grose]: excellent article. it has taken me 7 years to develop my character from a MS to someone who could almost be real. and yes, i had to take out the interesting scars, magic powers and funny coloured eyes, but my character really is tons better for it, and has their flaws along with their good qualities.[18]

[Marissa D]: Wow, that was a real eye opener to some of the lame crap I used to write. Although I have to object about the thirteen year old girl part... I know plenty of kids that age who write better than expected from thier age group. This quiz really helps people see how they can improve, but I guess it also helps people see how much they HAVE improved over the years. Thankyou for writing this! :)[19]

[Elora]:

I've taken two Mary-Sue tests just now and had problems with them because some of the traits seem too narrowly defined. Is attractiveness really a Mary-Sue-ism if the character in question is terrified of sexual relations and attempting to be celibate? Why is there no mark-off box for useful magical powers with nasty side effects? What about an empath who accidentally projects his nightmares at his own companions? I've added a variety of flaws to this character, specifically to prevent him from becoming a Mary-Sue, but the tests don't have anywhere for me to put them.

[Merlin Missy]: Re attractiveness: if you mean by "attempting to be celibate" that the poor dear is far too attractive for others to resist despite her protests, then yes, she's a Sue. (Please see the section on keelhauling authors who do this.) Regarding the rest, like anything else, it's a matter of how you handle it. Do the other characters too readily forgive him or is it a source of conflict? Do the "nasty side effects" have actual consequences or are they there to sound good? (Ask me sometime about writers who invoke the Wiccan Rule of Three regarding magic, only to forget it two pages later when it's inconvenient for the character.) You're the one who knows these answers, not me. If you know enough to make the characters well-rounded, give them honest-to-goodness flaws and weaknesses, and write them with an eye towards telling a good story rather than self-aggrandisement via your written avatar, then you don't need a litmus test. If you don't know enough yet, then hey, free advice is free advice.[20]

[Cat]: Gah. One of my characters just scored a 47, and the stupid story's not even fanfic. The only questions I missed were the ones that were Gargoyles-specific. I like the story too much to scrap it, but it's not like anyone else needs to see it, I guess.[21]

[Alison]: Hahay! A perfectly acceptable score for my girl Jess. She is pretty ordinary, after all... I will continue to develop her, though, as part of the natural process of writing. She's been with me for five years now! Thanks for this, it was extremely helpful.[22]

[oj]:

i stumbled upon your article when i was surfing the net for a mary sue litmus test. you see, i was in a fanfic website and there was this author who wrote a crossver between samurai x and lord of the rings. i reviewed the story and point blank said that his kenshin was a gary stu. of course, the author got mad and would not stop emailing me. it has been almost two weeks and we still have not stopped arguing over the issue. i think i'll use this test to show him once and for all. thanks. :)

[Cygnet]: I would be careful applying this litmus test to Kenshin. Kenshin, canonically, is a fantastic example of a character who meets nearly all the criteria for a Mary Sue and still works as a character. He's got a unusual appearance (red hair, violet eyes, very short), "godlike" fighting abilities, psychic abilities, a tragic past involving being orphaned and sold as a slave and then having the slavers and other slaves murdered around him when he was eight years old, was an assassin (which I swear should be fifty extra bonus points for male sues), EVERYONE likes him, he's a goody-two-shoes in many respects, women fall all over him, he's got a "special" name in more than one respect (Kenshin=Sword Heart, also, in this time/place a commoner would not likely have a surname), those in power turn to him canonically for help since he was thirteen years old ... and he's the ONLY person who can stop the bad guys ... and I'm certainly leaving some details out. However, Kenshin works quite well even with these details. ANd that is because Watsuki is a fantastic storyteller. That said, Kenshin's very canonical details make him an awful challenge to write in a crossover. And I say this having 500K or so words of Kenshin/Highlander crossover done ... if you write Kenshin true to canon and stick him in someone else's universe, he comes off as a flaming Sue. I regularly have to dial him back a bit to avoid this effect.[23]

[Balnibarbi]:

I have been studying Mary Sues for a while now, trying to write my own test and I'm glad that I found the original. It's wonderful. The only problem I have is with the gender question. It would imply that to avoid Mary Sues, one would have to only create characters of the opposite gender. But, being a woman, I feel more comfortable writing about female characters, because the mindstate is easier to get into. Otherwise, you hit it spot on. I've had this original character for five years now, and for the first four years, she was a Sue to be reckoned with. She had numerous relationships with characters such as InuYasha and Uchiha Sasuke, but this last year, I just called it quits. Now Mistral is no longer a half-breed with mysterious powers, she is no longer affiliated with other anime, and she only has one love interest, her friend of thirteen years, Azrael. It feels really good to create something truly original. Also, i've seen on some tests that you get Sue Points for drawing your character. I personally am more geared towards drawing than writing, very much so. Why is this?

[Merlin Missy]: The gender question is not so much a matter of incrimination as it is a matter of perspective. When dealing with an idealized character, it's much easier to distance yourself as a writer if the character is not the same gender as you are. It's not a make-or-break characteristic, which is why it's only worth a single point. One point doesn't mean anything, but if that is coupled with enough other Suelike traits, the whole pattern points to Idealized Self-Insert. Taking the same character, doing a gender flip, and then telling the exact same story won't drop your score more than that one point, but it might give you just enough distance to see what still needs work. Make sense? As for the "Drawing" question, I have no idea. I only wrote this test. Possibly in those fandoms, characters were more likely to be Sues if the authors spent hours lovingly coloring in their violet eyes. :)[24]

[Chelsea]: Fantastic. I enjoy how this review doesn't completely condem Sue writers, because as we know, everyone has to start somewhere. Sues help you writers devlop other skills before character development, but then again, 18 year olds writing Sues is pushing it. Litimus tests really help me when i create a character. It helps me gauge how over the top a chatacter is before i start writing it. It helps me make amends in a way that isn't as mortifying as eventy-thousand "OMG A SUE, YOU SUCK," comments. Good job.[25]

[unknown user]: This article was really good, great for a laugh. I once read a fanfic about a veela who was part inferi(Harry Potter), and she was the most beautiful thing alive(but inferi arn't alive?) and hermione commited suicide because she was too beautiful and Hermione couldn't take it. and the girl was emo and all the guys wanted her and Harry changed his name to Gerard Way and they got married. Supposedly it wasn't a Mary Sue... Anyway, a really well done test, I congratulate you.[26]

[minty freshness]: this is really useful. i got 14 points and i'm really happy that my OC, which is a girl, is not a Mary Sue but if i knew what are the Gargoyles and Fays and Brooklyn and Avalon that you're trying to say, i think that i would've gotten more than 14 which it probably in the border of the Sues. My character is good and not great singer, plays the guitar and a good cook, i can't say that she's beautiful...maybe cute or pretty enough but not beautiful. and most of the questions here are for fantasies and that's why i didn't get too much points lol. nice test but it could've been more specific, right?[27]

[Keatond]: I have to say, I am not quite pleased, i was one point away from having my character considered a "borderline character" at 15. I must say good test, but I personally feel that my character is great, not by review, not by My insertion into the story, but because i couldn't adequately give all the major details about the character. BUT i still feel that this test is good for telling you if your character should be jack-slapped back to the editor board.[28]

[Fynnagin]:

This is fantastic, you give some really great points and have practically described all the mary-sues I’ve ever read about. I do have a bit of a problem though: going through the test I realized that you suggest that nearly every character from every popular book/show is a mary-sue. Many famous authors have written stories centred around character all of which would be labelled as MSs, according to your test. This piece of writing was very interesting and insightful, but I have to say I agree with everything that Cygnet and Felice have written (above). I have a few characters myself that scored pretty high on this test, and other tests, but I know that they aren’t actually mary-sues. I’ve written quite a lot, and read quite a lot, and I recognize them when I see them, lol (seriously – don’t roll your eyes…). I’m just thinking of characters like Edward Elric, Kenshin, L, nearly every character from Lord of the Rings, Naruto (practically every Naruto character,), and hundreds of other extremely successful characters from extremely successful books/shows. According to your test, they’re all horrible mary-sues. All I can conclude is that this test was intended for OCs created for fanfiction, and not original characters created for original stories. But all in all, good job, ;)

[Missy Merlin]: Sorry, thought the whole "fanfiction" thing was pretty self-evident. I have issues with people modifying the test for original fiction, although I do think the list o' traits is useful to look at other fiction. For example, you mentioned LotR, but the truth is, the cast passes the test. The overblown set of characteristics that indicates a Sue is spread over many characters. Each character is special, but not So Sooper Speshul that s/he eclipses the rest. Aragorn is the long-lost heir, but Frodo is the Ringbearer. Legolas gets the eternal youth and psychic powers, Eowyn gets the rough childhood and self-sacrifice, and so on. Plus, the qualities get balanced by pride, self-doubt, and weakness, making them all better characters. Again, this test is not designed to look at characters from original fiction (though if you've written Gargoyles fanfiction, it's ready!) but you could do worse than to take this list or a similar one and see just how well your favorite books and shows balance traits among their characters.[29]

[Ren]: These tests are kind of hard to use. It's like you can't be an original character unless they are fat or retarded or like really normal like us or that they are human, so it's very controversial on my part. o.O[30]

[Tiana]:

Though I fully appreciate the litmus tests for writers, and even for myself when I was trying very hard to learn to be a better writer, there's one thing that makes me attempt to shoot my computer every time I look at most of them. "If your character is named after you/you after them, STOP WRITING" Okay, fine, I'll stop writing forever, unknown person on the internet. But before you kill my career as a journalist and writer that's actually making me money, let me explain something: Once upon a time, my first character was named after me, IRL me. Eventually I realized she was a stupid self-insertation and that I was making her embody everything I wanted to do and be, and that I was overly torturing her because of my moods. So I changed her name. At this point, I was starting to get into online roleplaying. I took characters out of stories I was writing to roleplay, and joined these forums, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, with the name of my character so that people weren't going "I go up to theshinyunicorn and say hi", but rather "I go up to Mary and say hi". As I got rather active on the internet and roleplaying, and my friends and I were all on similar sites, to not have to make a huge list of screennames, I used my frequent roleplaying character's name as my screenname. Everywhere. Because that way it wasn't "okay, you're on this site and ElfLove there and Greentree on that site and Willow202 and MrsSkywalker there and WorldofDarkness there and Josephine there and Margerita there and Saberz there..." Nope. I was Tiana. And they were their screennames that were the same everywhere. But I'd taken this original character from one of my stories and continued to write about her, even though she's really a mentally instable human chalk-full of personality flaws and realism who can't sing and doesn't have pet animals chasing her around, lured in by the gorgeous glimmering golden eyes and rainbow hair of the supernatural ultimate uber martial arts... Whatever, my point is, the fact that my one of my character's names is also my screenname almost everywhere is not what defines her as a Sue. It doesn't even make her a self-insertation. Force, I hope I'm NEVER like her. o_O And I use other character names too. It's because I'm a ROLEPLAYER. There's an exception for everything, so don't try pretend that there's not. Of course, I'm speaking from an original fiction perspective. As a fanfic reader and writer, I've found almost every single person who names their character after themself creates a horrible, hackneyed self insertation that makes me want to gouge my eyes out... Even myself. I'm tempted, so very tempted, to write a self-insertation story and make it good. Because I could, I think. I'm not bragging, I'm just speaking from the perspective of someone who's spent years studying character development and plot. Aaand these tests. XP Ah well, one fanfic on my plate is good enough. I remember once upon a time when my characters scored HIGH on these tests. o_O Well, dang. Nonetheless, tests like these did help me out quite a bit when starting, as a 14 year old writer who no one ever critiqued. I learned sooo very much and changed and improved so much. And it's paid off. I'm getting paid to write now. :)

[Merlin Missy]: So what you're saying is that when you apply the fanfiction test to fanfiction, it works. And when you apply the fanfiction test to something that isn't fanfiction, it doesn't. Huh. Fancy that. I still stand by the idea that you shouldn't name your character after yourself or yourself after your character. Why? Perspective. If I as a reader send you feedback telling you that Tiana is a bad character and kind of dumb, you're going to take it personally. When you write or roleplay the character you share a name with, you're going to do so (even unconsciously) with an aim toward not making yourself look bad. That's human nature, and very few writers can ever overcome it. You need to be brutally honest with yourself, and not many people can walk around with that level of honesty and not go crazy. The bloated self-importance that translates into a Sue on the page is a psychological self-defense mechanism in the real world. Again, it's human.[31]

[patrice]: this is a great article!!!!! i barely knew what a mary-sue was until i read this article!!!!! my character would have gone up in FLAMES!!!!! lol thanks merlin missy!!!!![32]

[MadRaven]: Hilarious and excellent for a laugh. I don't write much fanfic, but have found that this litmus test works excellently for characters out of original stories too. Happily, my main characters are Non-Sues, scoring (at least)2 to (at most) 13. Though that could be taken in a bad way (as in "I seriously need to spice up this character a bit".) Every one who reads/writes fanfic-scratch that, anyone who reads/writes at all (I'm looking at you, Stephanie Meyer and fans of the "Twilight/New Moon/whatever the hell the other books are called" series) SERIOUSLY needs to put the characters up against this test. For example, Bella and Edward from the abovesaid series are the most hopeless Mary/Gary case I have seen. Someone keelhaul Meyer.[33]

[Ben]: Very interesting. A character I've spent four--no, upwards of five years developing has turned out to be a borderline Sue, but every bit of him--every fear, every power, every friend, every foe--is too bound to the story itself for me to change anything at this point. I guess if I want that story to be a bestseller, I should hold off on writing it until I'm truly skilled...[34]

[Riann]: This test is pretty good, but one thing I just DON'T get is what is wrong with being an identical twin? I am an identical twin and I have no idea why being one is a Mary Sue trait.[35]

[Gott]: Nice read. But just because your character qualifies as a Mary-Sue (male or female) according to the test doesn't mean you're going to write a bad story. In fact, many great stories include these types of character. As long as one doesn't go over-the-top, it should be okay. If a character is too blatantly "awesome", flawless (or has an extremely tragic past to excuse any possible flaws) and always has everything going their way, then most likely the story's quality will suffer from it. To sum it up, if someone who's in their late teens at the very least can read you and not puke at the cheesiness of your characters, you have a go.[36]

[Gaara-Akatsuki]: Good test, though, for some cases, it could be a bit harsh for certain situations. I can imagine an OC that passed the test with flying colors being an underpowered failure when placed in a fandom like DBZ. I don't read a lot of fanfics or doujins that have OCs in them, but I do find most Mary-Sues extremely annoying when come across them. As for writing stories, I stick with cannon characters for my doujins and save OCs for original stories. I am glad to see that the characters I've tested passed, and one that scored a 5 might benefit from being spiced up a titch. Oh! I was wondering: Would it be completely evil to deliberately create a Mary-Sue-like character (in a scifi/horror style story) for the purpose of having readers hate them; think that it's just your typical MS; then have the character killed halfway through in some horrible and embarrassing way because of their own "I'm the greatest, most powerful, best looking badass in this story" attitude; and have the majority of other characters either not care that they died or laugh their asses off? I just want to know how wrong the idea is, because I personally find the thought of of a Mary-Sue getting what's coming to it hilarious.[37]

[Death]:

The author(s) of this article are complete morons. Why don't they look into a field of more significance, rather than wasting time explaining (in SUCH detail) in something that does not exist in the real world? (outside of fanfiction) Aspiring authors should not be discouraged by these unimportant phenomenons that people create because something does not "go there way." (-yes, we all know that's the reason people snark about these things, though you can sure as hell deny it, the green monster lurks.) have the courage to do what you feel is right. Not what people (write about to) tell you what is right.

[Tir] The person posting as "Death" sounds like a Sue-writer in denial. No, people do not snark your MS stories because they're jealous of your great writing. As MM said, if we were jealous, we'd be criticizing the good stories, not the Sues. And if we were jealous, we could write our own just by going down the list of MS characteristics and adding them all into our original characters![38]

[Kanna-Chan]: unfortunately,nowadays all female original characters can be labled as Mary Sues simply because they don't meet societies expectations of how women are supposed to behave.In fact,many characters from well known shows/comics can be called Mary Sues.Lum from Urusei Yatsura,Shakugan no Shana, Betty from Archie.All of these are technically Mary Sues.[39]

[Inquisitive]:

The test is fairly amusing. (Though, as you've pointed out repeatedly, not really designed for original fiction.) The one thing that I find a little unsettling about these tests, however, (hah; two cents unwarranted and yet made available) is the fact that a number of them seem to consider a character's femininity or race noteworthy enough to count against him/her/it.

[...]

It's just an unnerving thing that normally you can't comment upon these sort of issues on other circulated tests. (Especially the ones where your character's ethnicity, even if it happens to be your own, even if it's original fiction, is automatically a mark against it.) What are your thoughts on this trend? Are there a lot of stories involving 'minority' characters that turn the characters into Sidney Portier or something? (If there are, I haven't run across them.) I find this sort of rubric is about as helpful as a personality test, overall, but the tests invariably bring up ethnicity (save yours, and maybe one or two others) in a way that doesn't leave room for interpretation of an author's motives. (Yours suggests in the right way that an author who fills it out is both idealizing and patronizing whatever group of people he/she happens to be writing a character within. Others tend to just lay it out there that a character who is x has about as much chance of pushing the limit as a character with 'neon viridian eyes with epicenters of pure chocolate'. Really now?)

[Missy Merlin]: This is a good question. This test has been modified and tweaked since its original publication in 1997. Questions have been added or removed, the scoring system was weighted, that sort of thing. One of the earlier questions involved writing characters of an ethnicity the author didn't share (based mainly on the prevalence in our fandom at the time of Japanese OCs written without the benefit of knowing anything about Japan or Japanese culture). But the wording was problematic and I pulled it because it was essay-length to explain the problem of cultural appropriation, and this wasn't that essay. (I've written one and have another in the queue.) The "same gender" and "same racial group" questions are still there for the same reason the "same name" and "do you pretend you are the character" questions, but weighted far less because while they have an impact (the closer a character is to looking like you, the closer you are to sympathizing too closely with her/him), they are significantly smaller flags than the rest.[40]

[Lee]: Some questions attack irrelevant details (Did you spend more than a day looking for just the right name?[1] Creating a good, fully developed character can take weeks. Naming could require research based on location/time period, or simply finding a suitable name) (Is the character the same gender as you?[1] Who cares? It's 50/50) (Is the character a teenager or in her/his early twenties?[1] I get your point here, youth (especially surprisingly capable/skilled/mature youth) is focussed on way too much. But really, if the story is about HS, college, or anything else where that age is appropriate/necessary then it can't be Mary-Sue-ish period. In Gargoyle/Star Trek fandom it is generally inexcusable (particularily if we're talking about a high ranking military officer)) (Does the character have a ... sibling of the same gender?[2] I get the issue with the clone/ identical twin (and even recomend having a spot for "evil identical twin/clone"), having a sibling with the same gender is not at all Mary-Sue-ish. Having one that is always shown favortism / jealous / better looking / having the same love interest is, but that's about it) Also, I've never understood the inclusion of the infamous "Would you like to be friends with this character" question on these tests. Generally, OC's will be likeable, flawed of course (better be more than a "fiery temper" or stoic coldness), but still likeable. It would be really difficult to write an entire manuscript (or fanfic) about someone you don't like. And since we usually want to become friends with people we like...[41]

[Meh]:

You got a lot of good stuff, but harping on a charicter for having a tragic past?! Come on! In this day and age when everything has been done, it can be hard to come up with totally orginal ideas. Chances are if you look back far enough, your charicter or plot is going to resememble something that has already been done. But tragedy is a part of a good drama.

[Merlin Missy]: Tragedy that is done for a point, that evolves the character and all the rest of the cast, that resonates through the story, this is what makes good drama. Tragedy that is scribbled down for a hasty character sketch so that the rest of the cast (in this case, the last survivors of their clan --and they suspect their entire species at least at first -- who lost that clan in a horrific slaughter, who are despised, hunted and killed by the dominant species on the planet, who've been tricked and betrayed over and over by people they trusted and loved, and that's not even getting into Demona's backstory) feels sorry for him/her? That's not drama. That's stupidity, and it is lazy writing that refuses to develop a character to show us the reasons why the clan might come to like this person with or without the Giant Angsty Past Of Doom. Worse, the writers who go the GAPOD route tend to pick one of a very few ways to show (by which I mean tell, since there's no character development involved) how tragic and tortured their character is. Hence the questions. Lee: First, notice the points distributions on those questions. They're not make-or-break questions for a reason: only when you have a bunch of those traits in combination with the others do you have a problem. The more points you collect on the "I'm a lot like this character, so this character is a lot like me, so I don't want bad things to happen to this character unless of course people feel properly bad for me, I mean my character, when they do and anyway I get the hot girl/boy/both, I mean my character does, yeah that's it" part of the test, the more you need to distance yourself from your character. This is part psych test; the more you get pissed off or try to disregard particular questions, the more you need to think about them.
[Calvin]: "Tragedy is a part of good drama." True, but tragedy isn't a crutch for half-hearted drama. That's why all of these fanfics on the web are filled with gloomy gusses crying about their sorrowful past. I can go to a fanfic database website, open up a random fanfic, and pick out three characters per short-story who have an angsty past. This is a great article. Hopefully more people will read it and less people will make more original characters that don't have asian names despite the lack of an asian heritage, and don't actually have tragic pasts (you know, you can implement tragedy along the story). Finally, the "jealousy" argument Death posted a while back (original name there, not) falls short when you realized this simple fact. No one wants to emulate crap. No one is jealous of a lack of originality. Just because you think you're being different by making an angsty character with an asian name doesn't mean you're making a unique character.[42]

[unknown user]:

"It isn't 100% accurate since I've put my characters through some of these and they scored high, and they aren't Mary Sues at all. "

and you have a second opinion? it's hard to accurately evaluate your own writing.[43]

[Missy Merlin]: Anon: Point deductions are rare. The only real way to take away points is by writing very very well, and no one is capable of stepping back far enough from his/her work to know if it qualifies. It can't be part of a quick test (a litmus test is a quick yes or no test, not a definitive study). Fan: Anti-Sues are as reviled in fandom as regular Sues. Any character that is based more on a set of "omg, you must like/hate my character now" traits is not going to appeal to appeal to people nearly so much as a character who is grown like a real person with whom they can identify. Ezekiel: The two character unit tends to be covered with the "twin or clone" part. Sues come in units all the time.[44]

[Rose Koneko]: This test was very well done. I know there's a very fine line between Mary-Sue and original characters, but no one seems to know where it begins anymore. I think in general, original characters should remain OUT of fanfiction. Unless you need a villain, or extra characters for casual moments exchanges, they have no place in fanfics. Even if your Sue/Stu rates low on this test, ask yourself WHY this person needs to be in the story. Now if you merely like the world that the fanfiction has set up, and would like to have a character set up within it, but will have no contact with any of the established characters... That should be moderately alright. (Ninjas, Wizards, and apparently now, Vampires. Like it? Cool. Want to have Harry Potter fall in love with you? Not cool. Keep your fantasies to yourself, and not inflict them on the rest of the world.)[45]

[Noniberryjuice]: Eh... I feel so criminal posting to an old article, but anyway. I've always held an Mary Sue as an OC that overshadows the canonical cast and basically makes them dependent on her/him... and that's it. I don't feel that having certain traits, powers and names are necessarily bad unless they're out of place for the universe they're in.[46]

[Valen]: I don't understand why naming your character after yourself is so bad... Then again, I LARP (Live action roleplaying, which is essentially acting your characters in real life) So I am technically named after ALL my characters. And even though they share my name or some version of it, they are usually NOTHING like me at all.... And just a point, is Mary Sues aren't always bad. In a world of Anti-sues, the Sue can be the contrast that an rp/fanfiction needs. Mary Sues aren't always bad, my characters have a nice round balance of some of them sitting at Anti-sues while others being up at sues. Some characters need a tragic past, others don't. I've become less concerned of being a 'Sue' and making my characters real. Some of my 'realest' characters are complete Sues, but they seem more real than some of my anti-sues... just a point. As well, it rather depends if your trying to write a sue on purpose. After all, someone who is unaware that they are doing it might be lazy writing, but people who CHOSE to write Sue is another story (haha, no pun intended) altogether.[47]

[unknown user]: I tested it on this one and another quiz and the score averages out to a Borderline Mary Sue. One test, i got über-sue and on this one i got a 14. My character is actually an assassin/ninja with the power to create and the first name Allasë along with the fact no one knows her real age and she isn't evil, but isn't good combined with the roleplay i'm in about a supernatural spy school, I thought she might be a Mary Sue. So i changed her past so it wasn't so tortured and limited her powers of creation to not being able to pull a copycat. And it WORKED. I did not get yelled at for "having a character cooler than others"[48]

[Alasia Kinton]: This was truely helpful. I was afraid that my character would be a mary sue just because she's beautiful, really looks are the only thing all that great about her. She's not different at all from the rest of her race, and I'm glad having a physically attractive character doesn't automatically make them a mary sue. Not every character has to be average looking or unattractive, which i've learned. That is as long as you don't mention it frequently to the point where it gets annoying, which I don't do.[49]

[Epljpl]: Ok in general I think that it's a good quiz, but I took it and got a 92 for one of my charicters.... I'm 14 and working realy hard on my book. It realy hurt my confedance to see the result...[50]

[Crisel]: I got a 36 for my original male character. He must be a Gary Stu, and alas, it's always been my dream to publish the book with his story. But is he still Gary if all those 'perfections' have explanations? He also has flaws such as hot temper, falling in love with the wrongest of people, suicidal tendencies, occasional selfishness, vanity, tendency to be a loner, not listening to his friend's advices when he is angry, letting emotions destroy him even though he's smart, and the tendency to always run away from his problems. Yeah, sue stories (whether original, ie TWILIGHT or fanfic) are irritating.[51]

Meta/Further Reading

References

  1. ^ " The Mary Sue Litmus Test is up." - What Was New in 97?
  2. ^ See mentions of this in the What's New at the end of this page.
  3. ^ from Stinky Links (December 17,2009)
  4. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  5. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  6. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  7. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  8. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  9. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  10. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  11. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  12. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  13. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  14. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  15. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  16. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  17. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  18. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  19. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  20. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  21. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  22. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  23. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  24. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  25. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  26. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  27. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  28. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  29. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  30. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  31. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  32. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  33. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  34. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  35. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  36. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  37. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  38. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  39. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  40. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  41. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  42. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  43. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  44. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  45. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  46. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  47. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  48. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  49. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  50. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
  51. ^ from the 2007 posting at Firefox News
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