Talk:Doujinshi

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With the newly entered bunch of doujinshi I've seen a bunch with really strange titles (well strange from my perspective as someone who has never read or seen one of these), like single letter titles such as P, F or AAA. What's up with that? I'd love to see this explained for the clueless on the doujinshi page by someone who knows.--RatCreature 04:28, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not specifically familiar with Japanese PotC or LotR fandoms, but my guess is those titles mean something personal to the authors or are just them playing around in general. Doujin and JP fanfic authors are fond of using foreign languages and the like in their titles, in various creative/outright strange ways, lol. -Loren Leah 04:57, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, looking closer the F one seems to have also "Freedom" on the title (though half cut off), and with the AAA one that seems to be also the creator's pseud (remains odd though I guess it offers sorting advantages...), and as the P is PoC one, I guess it stands in for Pirate, but still, odd stylistic quirk.--RatCreature 05:06, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Keep in mind that I'm working off someone's translation of the title, which in some cases, is pretty shaky. Some have an a title in English even though the cover may or may not show it, some have a title that isn't English which puts me a complete disadvantage; in those cases I go with what the seller/collector calls it. Sometimes the source I have lists a title that is only a partial of what's on the cover. If I can easily translate the cover, I go with that one. In the end, there is going to be a higher incidence of error than with fanzines, and I'm really, really hoping that those in the know come along and help sort them out. As always, doing my best... Mrs. Potato Head 13:17, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I'd assume that eventually Japanese publications should be filed under their Japanese title if they have them, by someone who can read these and input the characters, with the English translation a redirect, similar to how it is with accented titles.--RatCreature 14:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Do you want some help? I'm happy to try to figure out Japanese titles. Just point me at 'em! (For what it's worth, it's not like pro manga are lacking in wacky, non-Japanese titles either. Q.E.D. springs to mind.) Franzeska 00:27, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't know how many of those have Japanese titles but here is a list of pages using the doujinshi template and two media fandoms that have doujinshi listed on their zine pages: Superantural doujinshi, Lord of the Rings doujinshi. --Doro 19:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
To be sure that I understand what's being said in this thread: doujinshi articles should be moved so they are named for their Japanese titles, e.g. Those Who Also Catch the Clouds should be moved to 雲をも掴む民, is that right? Or for their romanized titles, e.g. Kumo O Mo Tsukamu Tami? I don't have a preference either way, except that I'd be happy to move some articles away from dubious translations.
Additionally, when there is a secondary English title provided by the circle, is there a general preference for the article to be named in Japanese or in English? E.g. the article Gentle Vampire; the official title given on the circle's website is 優しい吸血鬼 ( Yasashii Kyuuketsuki, literally "gentle vampire"), but the doujinka provides "Sweet Vampire" as a secondary English title on the front cover. Or for Robomir Returns, the title is officially ロボミア リターンズ, which is a transliteration of the English "Robomir Returns." Since this is a wiki written in English, in these last two cases I would suppose (even prefer) that the English title be taken as the article name. Any thoughts or preferences on this? -- Kylara 21:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Leaving the "which is the more accurate name" issue to those who know this part of fandom, but: In the event, it should be the romanized name, not the Japanese characters. See Fanlore:Editorial_Procedures#Foreign_Language_Terms; it doesn't specifically address non-roman characters, but the clear preference is for anglicized words (no accented characters, etc.) in page titles. --Arduinna 23:12, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
From what I can make of the brief statement in the Editorial Procedures, it says that when there is an article which contains an accent mark, to create a redirect without the accent mark. It's not saying that the article name should itself not have accents. So it's preference isn't for anglicization, but for useful redirects. I think it's already settled that we'll be making redirects, either way. -- Kylara 23:45, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes. That is how I understood the policy as well, the opposite of what Arduinna said. That the title ought to be the actual title, and a only redirect should be there for people who can't easily input accents. Or non-latin characters in case of the Japanese ones. You can see it handled that way for other articles, like ¿Es acaso la athelas nuestra salvia común? which actually currently doesn't even have a redirect (I should probably fix that) or Starfleet Supplemental Communiqué or Subreality Café... --RatCreature 10:30, 15 April 2010 (UTC)


Organization of DJ section and lists

Not sure where to put this, so I'll start here. =) I just edited the page's "See Also" part, separating between fandoms and circles and adding appropriate links. However, I feel we should "outsource" that information to their own pages (i.e. "List of Doujinshi Fandoms", List of Doujinshi Artists/Circles" or something like that). In addition, perhaps it would be good to aim for some similarity between the fandoms. Currently there are a few "list of xy fandom DJs" pages, but there are also just subsections of general fandom pages, like the Van Hellsing page, which is a stub and contains only a list of DJs. Supposed, I want to look up DJ fandoms by using the links in the doujinshi category, I can find only five immediately by subcategory and just three by page title "list of...". For the rest, I have to dig around in the hopes of finding something in a subpoint on a fandom page. Any idea how to solve this? Or perhaps I missed some already existing index page? --Extempore 10:00, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by looking up DJ fandoms. If you check Category:Doujinshi you find all pages and images that have the doujinshi category. A fandom sub-category needs to have at least 15 pages or files. The five sub-categories you see are for Digimon, Final Fantasy, LOTR, Star Wars TPM and Supernatural because there are enough pages on Fanlore for a fandom sub-category. If other fandoms get more doujinshi pages/images, they can get their own sub-category too. We could maybe add the doujinshi cat to the images from doujinshi pages that don't have their own fandom sub-category yet, so someone clicking on the Doujinshi category could surf the category visually (recognizing a fandom, etc.) instead of just by a page name that doesn't say anything about the fandom... --Doro 10:31, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
"I'm not sure what you mean by looking up DJ fandoms." -- I didn't know about the content requirement for sub-categories. The way I look for things is by index, usually. That means, I need an easy to find list of pages that is well kept/complete/constantly updated. In case of DJs, that means a list of either similarly named pages ("list of...") or/and a page where the actual works/circles/etc. are listed. Perhaps my way to search is uncommon, I don't know. I just know that the current form of collecting information on doujinshi is not helpful to me, because even when I'm just browsing, looking for new fandoms and - in this case - doujinshi fandoms, I'd like to have a "rope" I can use to move along. Currently I'm pretty much forced to randomly open fandom pages to see, if there are doujinshi listed or to klick on unfamiliar names in the DJ category, not knowing, if it's a circle, a fandom, a single work etc. But as I said, perhaps I overlooked something? --Extempore 10:57, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
The way I look for things is by index, usually. The categories create an index by listing all pages and files that belong to that category. I made a few more fandom doujinshi sub-categories and added the doujinshi category to all doujinshi images that don't have their own fandom sub-cat. That way someone who wants to make a list of all doujinshi pages that don't have their own fandom sub-category could do so. However, such a list would very soon be out of date if no one updates it with each new addition. --Doro 12:52, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
"However, such a list would very soon be out of date if no one updates it with each new addition." -- So would be this entire Wiki and in fact, more than enough pages are. But that shouldn't keep us from trying to organize in a more compact or accessible manner ;P
True. I only wanted to point out that an index generated by a category is always up to date, which is pretty much why we more or less abandoned the List of [insert fandom] Zines approach. These lists were necessary when we didn't have fandom categories. --Doro 14:33, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Ah, I didn't know that. In that case, I suppose I'll abandone the listing idea again. =) --Extempore 15:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
"I made a few more fandom doujinshi sub-categories" -- These are great, thanks! Now what remains is to create the connection between the dounjinshi fandoms (and perhaps circles, although for now circles are listed on the DJ circle page and as long as there are few, I suppose they can remain there), because this is where I still see gaps. DJ Fandoms that have over 15 files in them are connected through the subcategory section, but those with less vanish in the mass of single links. Only three can be found immediately by looking for "list of...", the others are usually hidden on fandom pages as a sub-point. That's where my question comes in: Do we create a single "list of dj fandoms" page where we can collect links to: subcategories, "list of single fandom djs" pages and "fandom#subpoint doujinshi" pages in one place? Or do we change the sorting mechanism in general? Or do we need to change anything at all? --Extempore 13:37, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm still not sure what you mean by "doujinshi fandoms". I assume you mean fandoms where someone made a page for a doujinshi on Fanlore instead of fandoms that do have produced doujinshi, right? If you want to make a List of Doujinshi on Fanlore, I would say go for it. That's why I added the doujinshi category to the images that don't have their own fandom subcategory yet. Clicking on an image that belongs to Category:Doujinshi will now send you to the respective image page which has the page where the image is used linked at the bottom. That way you can find the pages that would need to go on such a doujinshi list. --Doro 14:33, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
With doujinshi fandoms I mean fandoms, for which there have been created doujinshi and where this creation (or possibly even the doujinshi themselves) is documented in some way on Fanlore. This documentation currently is done either through specific DJ pages such as Eros_(House_doujinshi), through lists of DJs on a "list of doujinshis in fandom XY" such as List_of_Final_Fantasy_Doujinshi, through including doujinshi on general fandom pages, like on the Van_Helsing page, where the proper link would be http://fanlore.org/wiki/Van_Helsing#Fanzines , or through the collection of specific fandom related doujinshi through the subcategories, if enough files are available, such as Category: CSI: Miami Doujinshi. There is no central place to find all of this in one go, no way to browse doujinshi by fandoms in a simple and organized manner without having to randomly check fandom pages to see, if there are DJs hidden or without looking over all the links in the DJ category to catch specific DJs not listed anywhere else etc. That's what I miss. --Extempore 15:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
or without looking over all the links in the DJ category to catch specific DJs not listed anywhere else. The doujinshi category gives you all pages and media on Fanlore about doujinshi. The fandom doujinshi subcategories are all crossindexed which makes them appear as subcategories at the top of the doujinshi category so that you can find all the doujinshi pages and media belonging to a fandom. Ideally, more and more fandoms will get their own doujinshi subcategory as more and more pages and files are added. For fandoms that don't have their own doujinshi subcategory yet, you can find all the pages/files by surfing via media in the main doujinshi category (only media that *doesn't* have its own fandom subcategory is listed there). As I've said, making a list for these pages is a good idea. It could be alphabetically by Fandom, only listing fandoms that have a doujinshi presence on Fanlore and listing the doujinshi pages under the fandom header (with the exception of the fandoms that have their own subcategories; there it could just say "see Category:Awesome Fandom", etc.). I can't think of a reason why there shouldn't be such a page, so if you want to make one, go ahead. :) --Doro 15:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Let me recap, because for some reason, I seem to have difficulties with English tonight and I don't think it would be useful for non-German-speakers, if I suddenly started to write in my native language in hopes of getting Doro better. >_>;
So, what you propose is a page on which I could, for example, list fandoms and beneath each fandom put links to specific DJ pages, yes? But not to DJ categories and not to fandom pages that feature "fanzine" sub-sections? (If no, why not?) How would I call this page? List of Doujinshi? List of Doujinshi Fandoms? Doujinshi on Fanlore? --Extempore 16:48, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
We could go to the chat room and talk German there. XD
But not to DJ categories Uh, no. I said that if there is a DJ fandom category, you don't need to link every single page that already belongs to that DJ fandom category. Much easier to just link the category. (For example: "Numb3rs: see Category:Numb3rs Doujinshi"). As far as I know the fandom pages that have a doujinshi sub-section are already linked on the doujinshi page? And that content would move to such a general doujinshi list? I never said not to link to other pages that already have lists. --Doro 17:21, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
"...chat room..." --- Going there now. =D--Extempore 17:26, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

a more general category/search question

I have a related question: How DOES the casual user look up things by "category"? Say I wanted to find everything about Starsky & Hutch? If I search by fandom, I get the Starsky & Hutch page, but I'd have to know that I had to scroll down to the bottom of that page to find the categories, and I'd also have to know what "category" meant. I'd most likely hit "Starsky & Hutch" which then brings me to a page that lists "zines" and "fanfiction" (btw: the fanfiction there is confusing, as it lists "0" after it, making me think there's nothing there, even though there is, but that's probably an unavoidable system thing) Maybe it's just me, but I find that it's kind of a maze, and it can't be easy for folks. Even now, when I need to get to the category page to fix things, I go to recent changes, find a fandom, click on it, go to the bottom of that page, and hit "categories" to get to the main list of categories. That's a lot of hunting and pecking. Then again, perhaps other folks are more savvy about wikis and searching than me? Or maybe I've carved out a little path in my brain that hasn't looked for alternatives? Those two things are always possibilities.

This is kind of a crazy idea and perhaps not viable, but could there be a place on each fandom and each category page that is a standard place (at the top of the page? in the template?) that is a sort of "you may be looking for?" or "other [fandom name] pages"? An example for Supernatural: have a link to the category for Supernatural zines, one for fanfiction, one for vids, one for doujinshi right there on the page. Or if that's too tedious, then a link at the top of these big pages that says, "for other Supernatural pages, see: and then have a link to the main category list right there.

Just some thoughts. --Mrs. Potato Head 14:04, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

How DOES the casual user look up things by "category"? Say I wanted to find everything about Starsky & Hutch? You would go to the section on the left side where it says "Browse Categories", click "Fandoms" go to "S" and click "Starsky & Hutch". That shows you first the Starsky & Hutch subcategories (the number behind a subcategory indicates that the subcategory has subcategories of its own, clicking "+" will show these sub-subcategories), then the pages that belong the Starsky & Hutch main category and then the images and files (media) that belong to the Starsky & Hutch main category. The information under the section header shows you if there are more pages/images than you can see on that category page, so that you can click on the "next 200" (which you only see when there *are* more than 200 pages/files in any given category) to get to these pages and files. --Doro 14:20, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. That helps with part of it. --Mrs. Potato Head 14:41, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
"Maybe it's just me, but I find that it's kind of a maze" -- It's not just you. ;) I've had the problem of navigation from the very beginning and I still don't find it easy to browse this site, now that I know, how it's organized. Having followed various discussion on the DW community about tags and categories, I suspect that for one it simply has to do with the diversity of the project and the fact, that no matter what, some groups of fans will always feel to be at a disadvantage because of a certain way to structurize parts of fandom or source material. (I'm not taking myself out of this, btw.) For another, the layout could be changed a bit to nudge the casual user into certain popular areas, such as fandoms etc. (through emphasis, coloring, shorcuts on the top of the page or similar measures.)
I do get why things are structured the way they are - it's just not easy to access somethings from pages inbetween without having to return to the sitemap, for example, and following several steps as Doro layed out, or knowing the exact name of what one is looking for. And it most certainly is a cultural shock for anyone who has never worked with Wiki creation or code writing in general and is used to a "Main Menu" or "List of Fandoms/Pairings" link at the top of every page.
For instance, I'm overwhelmed with the multitude of possibilities I get on the left side menu, more than two thirds of the things I never use. I'd love to have the possibility to remove/add links to create my own menu sidebar, which I then would actually use. But I digress, apologies. ;) --Extempore 14:54, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
For instance, I'm overwhelmed with the multitude of possibilities I get on the left side menu, more than two thirds of the things I never use. I know what you mean. Personal tools duplicates the links that are already on top of the page so I never use that. Help is not really helpful to me because there are three links, and I'm never sure where to look because all help needed here is somehow related to editing so having three different pages for that is something I find confusing. The only link from the Shortcuts for Editors I use is the Template link, but that could just as well go to the general Toolbox. Also, it took me forever to realize that the sidebar changes depending on what type of page you are (different tools when you are on user page). --Doro 15:21, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
"Help is not really helpful to me because there are three links, and I'm never sure where to look because all help needed here is somehow related to editing so having three different pages for that is something I find confusing." - THIS. I never remember where to look, and if I need something specific I just try my luck. "Editing Help" and "Tutorial" are linked from "Help Home" anyway, so why do they have to appear in the sidebar? --Tiyire 16:04, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
"it's just not easy to access somethings from pages inbetween without having to return to the sitemap": I think this touches on some of my issues; the having to go back and forth and wander around and losing track of the path I was on. I think that a fan who is on the main, say, Blake's 7 page, should see a standardized list of "shortcuts" to things like Blake's 7 zines, cons, vids, etc. The list of shortcuts would have to be different for every fandom, as not all fandoms have cons or zines, etc.. This doesn't stop a user who wants to explore further or is more experienced in searching, but for the casual user, this one-stop-shopping would be a lot easier, and hopefully would lead to other searching. As for the left side menu, I (obviously from the question I asked that Doro answered), I don't use it much. I poke at "recent changes," "templates," and "upload a new file," and rarely anything else. Then again, I am probably stuck in a rut. --Mrs. Potato Head 16:26, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I think that a fan who is on the main, say, Blake's 7 page, should see a standardized list of "shortcuts" to things like Blake's 7 zines, cons, vids, etc. Maybe the Blake's 7 category could have a calendar subcategory but other than that, everything seems fine to me. Or do you mean something like a related pages template? We already have one but no one seems to use it...--Doro 16:59, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Fanlore Policy on Scanlations

Seeing as a bunch of the doujinshi I own are scanlations by various groups - how is the policy on this? For example, on Come with the Wind I used a DJ scanlation for the interior image. Should doujinshi scans all be original scans from the manga one physically owns? (Side problem: scanlations vary in quality from awesome to aweful when it comes to translation, so that would speak against using them. OTOH as far as I know the physical distribution of doujinshi has been overtaken by the virtual one, especially combined with added translations. So it might be harder to find people who have the hard copy of a DJ and are willing to add to fanlore.)--Extempore 14:24, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Good question. I think it should be noted that it's a scanlation scan and with credit to the group that created it (if it's know who made the scanlation) and wikilinking the word "scanlation" so that people can check up on what that means. --Doro 14:31, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
I took a look at Fanlore:Image_Policy and the closest point was the "upload without permission" one. It's strange, because I wouldn't hesitate a second to upload a scan from a German manga I own, but I'm hesitant to upload scanlations. I suspect, it's because of the legal status of scanlations - after all, technically they are a violation of copyright. So I suspect the correct question would be: does Fanlore accept such a violation since it's a well established fannish practice (one could argue that without scanlations quite a few manga and their artists - especially in BL fandoms - would never have become internationally popular) or not? (Another example would be the posting of Link to webpages for scanlation groups or to torrent sites for Anime Eps.) --Extempore 07:38, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

FYI: This question was answered in the dreamwidth community: paraphrasing from Legal: using a portion of a scanlation to make a point about that particular scanlation or about scanlating in general/the history of scanlation/etc is fair use and A-OKAY. We just don't want to host entire scanlated runs of manga, etc. --æþel 00:51, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

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